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haroyal
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| Joined: | Thu Nov 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | New York, USA |
| Posts: | 111 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP | | Exams Passed: | PD, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP | | Describes Me: | |
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Posted: Mon Jul 28th, 2008 11:38 pm |
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I was recently advised by NCARB that my eligibility to take the ARE have been suspended for providing exam content on this forum (my Master List).
What NCARB doesn't realize is that every syllable, noun and verb in my Master List is taken from other posts on this forum. I approach each test by reviewing two years of Forum posts and compile the relevant information into a comprehensive document. I then embellish the areas I am not familiar with and use the final document as my primary study tool.
Once the test is over, I post the Master List for other test takers to use. I have noticed several such lists on this forum. Why mine was singled out is unclear (it has since been deleted by NCARB).
It's also unclear to me how I can violate NCARB non disclosure regulations by posting information compiled before my test. If I was clairvoyant and knew the answers before hand, I wouldn't bust my butt studying when I could be playing golf, sailing or doing anything else except being indoors reading books on 90 degree days.
Anyway, I'm not sure how this will play out but don't worry because I'll be fine. Life goes on!
I would suggest that everyone be cautious with the information they post even if it is regurgitated information.
I'll keep you updated on this issue.
Howard
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archstudent6
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| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 99 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | Ces't Fini!! |
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 02:35 am |
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Sheesh...
Last edited on Tue Jul 29th, 2008 02:56 am by archstudent6
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icarusburns
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 04:11 am |
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Wow, that's crazy. I know some folks are pretty blatant at spouting off answers. They are usually kept in check, quickly by the regulars here. Most of us are pretty vague.
I was just thinking the other day about this forum, and how use-full it is, but at the same time how misleading it can be as well. Some people seem to use the forum as a crutch, a catch all of sorts, where they will take someone summary of an exam and use it in hopes of a pass, with who knows what other study info. While I can see that it's easy to do, it's not good practice. I can only imagine the many test variations in the prometric test bank, and to rely only on a few posts in the forum is, probably in most cases a sure ticket to disaster. It has always been my thought that due to the vast test bank, NCARB doesn't really feel the need to regulate the forum. So, I am surprised that you got the warning.
Most times, it is my feeling that the information on the forum by recent test takers is stimulation overload, which is another reason I figured NCARB was just letting it run its course over here. Some times too much information can have a negative affect, and too much of the wrong information is a serious negative.
Last edited on Tue Jul 29th, 2008 01:59 pm by icarusburns
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Meigs9
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| Location: | ARCHITECT, LEED, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 1005 |
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 02:34 pm |
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Unfortunately, this has happened before. Posters have to be very careful about what they post. As a "old timer", I have often contacted the forum admin. about posts that cross the line. Usually the post is deleted right away. There are many of us who police the forum for the good of all but it would really serve us all if people were more cautious.
The internet provides an outlet for people to feel that they are anonymous. However, I have "discovered" two former classmates and three former/current co-workers on the forum. Not so anonymous.....Obviously, NCARB has a way to figure out who you are.
A warning to all.....please be very careful in what you post.
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Ladans
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| Location: | Dana Point, California USA |
| Posts: | 697 |
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 04:07 pm |
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| I hope and pray everything works out well for you. Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 10:10 pm by Ladans
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haroyal
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| Location: | New York, USA |
| Posts: | 111 |
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 04:12 pm |
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I am also an old timer (relatively speaking) and I am very careful to word my posts in a way that compromising information is not divulged. I too have seen posts that I feel are over the line but I never fully trust anything I read anyway. I'm also not interested in policing the forum.
I've been in this business for almost 30 years and am taking the exams as a life time goal not to further my career. I have a very senior position in a NY office and am doing quite well without a license. In fact, I will probably transition out of this profession shortly into finance/economics as I have an MBA in these areas and wall street is far more lucrative.
What annoys me is that NCARB has approached this matter is a very unprofessional and disrespectful way. I would have appreciated a warning letter or email that my post straddled the line (in their opinion) and I would have voluntarily deleted the offending post. My intent is to pass the exams and share information with other test takers not to circumvent the integrity of the process. This forum has been invaluable to me and I enjoy giving back when I can.
I agree that icarusburns that there is lots of information that is not always helpful and that some participants use the forum as a crutch. There is lots of evidence of this by the questions posted. My opinion is these people will be in for a surprise when they test and they are not prepared. Those of us who are diligent and thorough when preparing will always fare well.
I have posted several master lists after taking exams which are compilations of other posts. My post for PD was not different.
I plan to vigorously defend my position against these allegations as they are baseless and without merit and I will take this as far as need be to prove my position.
I will keep everyone informed as this matter unfolds.
Howard
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b-man
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 05:35 pm |
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dang,
hope everything works out for you. i also agree with your points about adding to the list and providing subject matter and NOT acutal material. i don't get it.
*shakes head* please keep us posted
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Coach
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 06:11 pm |
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How do they know who you are?
How can they prove anything?
Do you haven an attorney?
There's no way a suspension would hold up in court. Every other exam on the planet has similar information available. How do you study then?
Is NCARB saying that it's a big trick? Are they admiting that their exams are so full of crap & whim that much of the content is irrelevant; therefore, getting help takes away the element of surprise?
This is the epitome of capriciousness.
Is there one thing on your list that does no appear in Kaplan, Archiflash or any of the suggested materials?
If I were in your shoes I would contact my Attorney General immediately. One day, NCARB is going to step on the wrong toes and that's when this BS system get fixed.
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baby_architect
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 06:33 pm |
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I am sure NCARB could argue that Kaplan, Archiflash, and Ballast are not on THEIR suggested reading list as printed in the ARE Guidelines Version 3.1 http://www.ncarb.org/are/areguidelines31.pdf - I know because I was just purusing the list again as my predesign test is upcoming..I completely agree that PD is extremely inclusive to the wide variety of topics listed in the master list and more not mentioned I would bet - NCARB could quite possibly cap all of our frustrations by simply putting out standard and REASONABLE study materials themselves - not the expensive BS they provided us w/ for 3.1 that they generously donated once 4.0 became available..give me a break..show of hands for everyone who ante'd up the 50$ per book on those study materials for the little help we were given...I know my office did back in the day..bought them both...and can I tell you for graphics the Dorf material made more sense than the NCARB Solutions?..
bottom line is they have us..and they know it...they change the rules, give us time limits, change the test..and we have to take it..they step on a person..and all he can do is fight back...but ultimately - they hold all the cards...so long as any of us want to be licensed...
fight the fight...damn the man...save the empire!
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brudgers
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 02:56 pm |
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It appears to me that NCARB's problem isn't with master lists, they have long been tolerated on the forum.
Indeed NCARB even publishes something similar in their study guides.
One of Hayroyal's posts appears to identify specific content of his exam.
It states:
I highlighted the content on my test in red for easy reference.
Those interested should probably read it before it is deleted.
Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 02:57 pm by brudgers
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Nomadica
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 03:33 pm |
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As with a similar situation of some years ago: it doesn't seem to be an issue of merely creating a master list out of other people's posts - it seems to be one of knowingly creating a list that contains actual test questions.
In that previous situation it certainly seemed the candidate was aware that there were actual test questions in the post. Even after NCARB posted a bunch of warning threads on the forum other candidates reported that the info was still being distributed to them by email.
In this new situation it seems clear-cut that the info is identified as appearing on the test. Also, it's not a matter of disclosing one or two questions. The red highlighted material seems to cover at least forty separate questions encountered on one test...
I've posted this before: about a year ago NCARB was advertising a position that involved monitoring all "known" forums where the ARE is discussed, identifying improper disclosure of test info, and organizing disciplinary action against the perpetrators.
So there's no question that the forum is monitored regularly. And given that there is a history of this type of action against people who post test content
I don't think it should come as a huge surprise that this has happened again.
As for how NCARB identifies posters: in some cases it's very easy (in the most famous case on the forum the poster's email address was their name). In others the person posts the date of his test, and that's basically all NCARB would need. Keep in mind that there is a relatively small number of people taking the ARE at any given time (only a few thousand tests are administered per year). Each section is estimated to be administered only 3 or 4 times per day nationwide on average, and each person gets a different mix of questions. If they know what day you tested and just a few of the questions you saw then they know who you are.Last edited on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 10:14 pm by Nomadica
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brudgers
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 03:52 pm |
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I also suspect that the forum would provide IP information if NCARB requested it.
And registered users supply an email.
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superduct
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| Location: | Miami, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 216 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | PD, ME, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | A*R*C*H*I*?*_*_*_, LEED® AP |
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 04:04 pm |
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this is some heavy sh!t. we are all big 'helpers' but this is taking too much effort and time to give aynone an opportunity to take it from us. i can't believe they suspended you, howard! i am so sorry to hear it man - it really makes me cringe...
best of luck in defending your case....
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superduct
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| Location: | Miami, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 216 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | PD, ME, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | A*R*C*H*I*?*_*_*_, LEED® AP |
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 04:11 pm |
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every single action anyone does on the internet is tracked. for those of you that have a website, you know that there are statistics down to the name of your internet provider that are generated each and every time you visit a website. your IP is basically as good as your address...
ALSO, it's freakin NCARB we're talking about here - they have the money & resources to figure out who all of us are...i am sure they have a real-time database of each and every one of us on this website!
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King
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 04:19 pm |
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brudgers wrote:
It appears to me that NCARB's problem isn't with master lists, they have long been tolerated on the forum.
Indeed NCARB even publishes something similar in their study guides.
One of Hayroyal's posts appears to identify specific content of his exam.
It states:
I highlighted the content on my test in red for easy reference.
Those interested should probably read it before it is deleted.
After reading his original post, I think he cross the line too.
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archstudent6
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| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | Ces't Fini!! |
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 04:22 pm |
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| Perhaps it's too much, or not. But I find it interesting that this post hasn't been removed, where his PD has...
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baby_architect
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 05:16 pm |
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King wrote: brudgers wrote:
It appears to me that NCARB's problem isn't with master lists, they have long been tolerated on the forum.
Indeed NCARB even publishes something similar in their study guides.
One of Hayroyal's posts appears to identify specific content of his exam.
It states:
I highlighted the content on my test in red for easy reference.
Those interested should probably read it before it is deleted.
After reading his original post, I think he cross the line too.
thats pretty harsh - he highlighted general terms that he had on his test - no more than what any other person has done in a breakdown post of their exam for others..are you going to suspend them as well? - let's play fair after all..
and before i get in trouble here - i dont know for certain it was general topics or how specific it got - but had it been actual test questions and gone more to test info. - someone here would have raised a red flag and given hayroyal a heads up on it..and the fact that no one did - kinda says that no one saw this as anything more than a general study list
Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 05:23 pm by baby_architect
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Nomadica
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 05:24 pm |
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| He didn't just highlight terms. In many cases he highlighted paired information - i.e. a term or definition or issue and then a key point in parentheses. These appear to me to be a kind of shorthand for questions with his selection of answer choice (though for the most part none of what he highlighted - or for that matter anything in this master list - appeared on any of my tests, so I can't say that for sure which content NCARB objected to...)
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brudgers
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 05:42 pm |
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The only report we have for why Haroyal was suspended (or that the suspension even occured) is from Haroyal.
In case it gets forgotten, there is also a post which was deleted.
In my opinion, it is a reasonable interpretation of the one which remains as providing specific exam content.
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King
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 05:42 pm |
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baby_architect wrote: thats pretty harsh
I am not trying to be harsh here (just my opinion). He was walking a dangerous fine line b/t providing actual TEST info & study materials. If he did not highlight his text, NCARB would not suspend him.
Now, I am also worried about some of the stuff I posted on the forum. Let's hope everyone will learn a lesson from this.
Wish him the best.
Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 05:51 pm by King
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brudgers
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 05:59 pm |
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In my opinion, people who are involved in cheating deserve what they get when they're caught.
The fact that those caught aren't barred from licensure means they get off pretty easy.
The role of licensure is to protect the public.
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AbracaPocus
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 07:00 pm |
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Those caught aren't necessarily barred from licensure forever, but the states are notified and can take that action or a lesser one if they so choose.
In Donna's case I remember that she wrote that NCARB suspended her testing privileges for 3 years and also referred the matter to her state for disciplinary action.
I noticed that Donna has recently begun posting here again (her whole test content matter happened 3 or 4 years ago now). I don't know if she'd really want to rehash any of her situation publicly in the forum - I know she removed most of her own older posts years ago and that the forum administration more recently removed posts related to the matter.
But Haroyal, you might want to try to email her privately (her member name here is "Donna"). She might be able to give you some insight into how to address this with NCARB. At the time that this happened to her she mentioned speaking with an attorney and trying to collect evidence that the materials she'd posted were not complete enough to give anyone an unfair advantage and that they were also readily available from various sources and all she'd done is compile them...Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 09:49 pm by AbracaPocus
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baby_architect
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 07:15 pm |
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brudgers wrote:
In my opinion, people who are involved in cheating deserve what they get when they're caught.
The fact that those caught aren't barred from licensure means they get off pretty easy.
The role of licensure is to protect the public.
but you are judging a fellow tester as a cheater - when if in fact had you truely felt this way you should have warned him back when he first posted the list...isnt that your duty?
i dont believe he cheated anymore than any of us who come back from the test and emotionally vomit what we can remember and agonize over passing or failing - he only went a step further and posted items studied from what i can gather - so what if he put the item and the definition beside it...wouldnt we find that in Ballast, Kaplan, the Archiflash or even the IBC? It was a study guide where he highlighted the various items he happened to have on his test...say 40 out of any 40 million?..after all PD covers freakin everything...just because he had those 40 doesnt mean the next 70 people reading that post will...and as someone who has retaken this exam quite a few times - does that mean i will eventually get it right simply because i will have seen it before?..does that make me a cheater?..get off your pedestal..
as far as the role of licensure being to protect the public...licensing only checks for minimum competancy...you can be book smart and street stupid to pass this test..the graphics portion alone speaks to that..but esp now since they are allowing kids to take this 6 months out of college...sure they still have to do their internship..but now they are immeadiately architects...whereas some of us have more years of experience behind us and dont get that stamp quite as quickly...who should the public be more afraid of?
Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 07:16 pm by baby_architect
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King
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 08:14 pm |
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baby_architect wrote: but you are judging a fellow tester as a cheater - when if in fact had you truely felt this way you should have warned him back when he first posted the list...isnt that your duty?
Come on now...Brudgers is not his babysitter, is he? You are responsible for your own action.
Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 08:25 pm by King
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brudgers
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 08:29 pm |
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baby_architect wrote: brudgers wrote:
In my opinion, people who are involved in cheating deserve what they get when they're caught.
The fact that those caught aren't barred from licensure means they get off pretty easy.
The role of licensure is to protect the public.
but you are judging a fellow tester as a cheater - when if in fact had you truely felt this way you should have warned him back when he first posted the list...isnt that your duty?
I didn't judge anyone...heck the whole thing might be a spoof. But it's not my responsibility to police other people. Architects are licensed on the premise that they are worthy of public trust. If an individual is not capable of demonstrating that worth, that doesn't indicate a problem on anyone else's part.
i dont believe he cheated anymore than any of us who come back from the test and emotionally vomit what we can remember and agonize over passing or failing - One doesn't have to cheat to be involved in cheating. One can aid others in the process. The compromises the licensure process. It is also a reasonable indication that a candidate may not be worthy of the public trust. he only went a step further and posted items studied from what i can gather Other than the OP and NCARB nobody has official information. There could be more to the story than the OP admitted...afterall, here in the forum, the OP didn't admit to having done anything. - so what if he put the item and the definition beside it... The what is that NCARB has determined that something the OP did was a violation. wouldnt we find that in Ballast, Kaplan, the Archiflash or even the IBC? It was a study guide where he highlighted the various items he happened to have on his test...say 40 out of any 40 million?..after all PD covers freakin everything...just because he had those 40 doesnt mean the next 70 people reading that post will...and as someone who has retaken this exam quite a few times - does that mean i will eventually get it right simply because i will have seen it before?..does that make me a cheater?..get off your pedestal.. In preparing for PD, know the difference between a pedestal, a high horse, and a soapbox.
as far as the role of licensure being to protect the public...licensing only checks for minimum competancy...you can be book smart and street stupid to pass this test..the graphics portion alone speaks to that..but esp now since they are allowing kids to take this 6 months out of college...sure they still have to do their internship..but now they are immeadiately architects...whereas some of us have more years of experience behind us and dont get that stamp quite as quickly...who should the public be more afraid of?
Those who are willing to cheat or help others to do so.
Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 08:30 pm by brudgers
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baby_architect
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 08:47 pm |
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King wrote: baby_architect wrote: but you are judging a fellow tester as a cheater - when if in fact had you truely felt this way you should have warned him back when he first posted the list...isnt that your duty?
Come on now...Brudgers is not his babysitter, is he? You are responsible for your own action.
no - he isnt his babysitter - however in a forum that is suppose to be to a HELP others why are we trying to CUT each others throat?
I dont believe haroyal was cheating - I dont believe he is a cheater - I saw the list in question and quite frankly I believe NCARB is once again making a mountain out of a molehill - bottom line is NCARB is, was, and always shall be the puppet master..I got that point..haroyal has gotten that point..and is trying to give the rest of ya'll a heads up..calling him a cheater is counterproductive, insensitive, and quite frankly downright rude...
give the guy a break..we ALL live in glass houses...go ahead and throw stones..
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brudgers
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 10:12 pm |
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Nobody has called anyone "cheater."
However providing other people with exam content is has clear consequences.
I don't have an issue with sanctions against those caught doing so.
Again, they should consider themselves lucky that they still have a chance of becoming an architect.
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haroyal
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| Location: | New York, USA |
| Posts: | 111 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP | | Exams Passed: | PD, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP | | Describes Me: | |
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 05:21 am |
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