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architect requested testing/inpection - payment question

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globalevine
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Posted: Sun Aug 17th, 2008 11:57 pm

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an architect providing contract administration services orders inspection or testing of a building component.

who pays for this testing?

my understanding is that the contractor must pay for the inspection/testing, but that if the component passes he must be reimbursed by the owner.

is that right?

Coach
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Posted: Mon Aug 18th, 2008 10:07 am

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globalevine wrote: an architect providing contract administration services orders inspection or testing of a building component.Why?who pays for this testing?my understanding is that the contractor must pay for the inspection/testing, but that if the component passes he must be reimbursed by the owner.

is that right?This is beyond the scope of the exam.

el_capitano
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Posted: Mon Aug 18th, 2008 07:20 pm

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globalvine,

You are right. The architect has that authority AIA201/13.5

coach,

You are worng. By the way, you are not obligated to respond to everybody's question. but if you think you are, please check the AIA and other sources. You may confuse some people.

Last edited on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 10:23 pm by el_capitano

Coach
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Posted: Mon Aug 18th, 2008 07:35 pm

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el_capitano wrote: coach,

You are worng. Oh really?I asked "why", as in what was the purpose of the testing.By the way, you are not obligated to respond to everybody's question. but if you think you are, please check the AIA and other sources. You may confuse some people. You're not obligated to respond to me. What makes you the authority? Have you failed the exam a few times so you know all the questions?Many of your posts have been beyond misleading. You get into minutea that has nothing to do with correct answers and leads to failure.But please, feel free to continue as you are. You can come at me all you want but I assure you that oyu will not shut me up. The only one confused here is you.

el_capitano
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Posted: Mon Aug 18th, 2008 10:45 pm

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Coach,

Yes I consider myself an authority but I don't feel obligated to present my credentials to you. As a licensed architect, however, I feel responsible to help whenever I can. I also feel responsible to cuation you not to provide wrong and misleading infromation.

Other than the above I won't dignify.

swedishduck
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Posted: Tue Aug 19th, 2008 03:17 pm

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el_capitano wrote: globalvine,

You are right. The architect has that authority AIA201/13.5

coach,

You are worng. By the way, you are not obligated to respond to everybody's question. but if you think you are, please check the AIA and other sources. You may confuse some people.

Umm... The question never asked who has authority. Try reading it before you make these inflammatory responses.

Coach
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Posted: Tue Aug 19th, 2008 07:12 pm

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Ahhh, reason enters the room.

salt
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Posted: Tue Aug 19th, 2008 08:34 pm

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nothing wrong with some polemics- why not keeping a healthy amount of scrutiny over whatever lands in the forum?

coach- as said before- i appreciate a lot of your comments- the bottom line mostly is "question beyond scope, see the bigger picture"- i guess, you have a very valid point- but after all its only an opinion.

regarding the question above: what came to my mind was if the building in question was a central services building ( maybe surely beyond the scope?), the architect will be required to do CA and the whole inspection, special inspection, approved inspector etc. story takes off big scale.
maybe it is sufficient to know just that, maybe it is good to know that (to my knowledge) the architect will have to inspect and report continuously and will have the enforcement agencies approved certif...bla inspector excercise his specialties.
(CCR Title 24, Admin.)

yes, this might be over the top, but if i knew exactly what to shoot for, i would not post my half cooked sermon here.

all twisted and untwisted comments welcome

Coach
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Posted: Tue Aug 19th, 2008 10:55 pm

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salt wrote: nothing wrong with some polemics- I agree.coach- as said before- i appreciate a lot of your comments- the bottom line mostly is "question beyond scope, see the bigger picture"- i guess, you have a very valid point- but after all its only an opinion.It's what I've gotten from 2 different seminars. All seminar leaders have taken the CSE, some more than once.I think the problem is two-fold. First, some people, fresh off the ARE are trying to make this the PD & CD exam all over again. Second, some are using old material (like 125 Q's & Amor) to prep, not realizing how much the exam has changed.regarding the question above: The scenario may indeed appear in a question, but IMO (happy now?) the anser they're looking for will probably involve dispuite resolution and the reason for seeking the additional testing.All I know is that we need to be ready for some really strange questions.

exam
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 11:46 pm

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globalevine wrote: an architect providing contract administration services orders inspection or testing of a building component.

who pays for this testing?To answer your question without being part of the argument.There are two main cases1) If the tests are already required in the contract documents the contractor is responsible for paying for the tests.2) If the tests are not noted in the contact documents and are requested by the architect in the course of construction the owner is responsible for paying for the cost of the tests.Please also note however that if a test is requested (no matter whether or not it was required in the CDs) if the construction fails to meet the CDs requirements, then the contractor is responsible for paying for the cost of the test. My last point is that the reason for the test is irrelevant in the question. the clear point of the question is that the test is ordered.Thank you.
my understanding is that the contractor must pay for the inspection/testing, but that if the component passes he must be reimbursed by the owner.

is that right? Right, when the test is required in the contract documents.

Last edited on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 11:48 pm by exam

Coach
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Posted: Thu Aug 21st, 2008 12:29 am

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exam wrote: globalevine wrote: my understanding is that the contractor must pay for the inspection/testing, but that if the component passes he must be reimbursed by the owner.

is that right? Right, when the test is required in the contract documents.You just contradicted yourself.Reimbursable only if subject passes the first time and it is not a test/inspection specifically required by the CD's.

exam
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Posted: Thu Aug 21st, 2008 12:41 am

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Coach wrote: exam wrote: globalevine wrote: my understanding is that the contractor must pay for the inspection/testing, but that if the component passes he must be reimbursed by the owner.

is that right? Right, when the test is required in the contract documents.You just contradicted yourself.My response is to when the the contractor pays for the test. Once again Coach for you to underatand. The contactor pays for all tests that are required and noted in the contract documents.My answer above is very clear and the second note was only for emphasis.Please note that we are not here to waste our time. Thank you.Reimbursable only if subject passes the first time and it is not a test/inspection specifically required by the CD's.

Last edited on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 09:52 pm by exam

Coach
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Posted: Thu Aug 21st, 2008 09:34 am

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exam wrote: Coach wrote: exam wrote: globalevine wrote: my understanding is that the contractor must pay for the inspection/testing, but that if the component passes he must be reimbursed by the owner.

is that right? Right, when the test is required in the contract documents.You just contradicted yourself.My response is to when the the contractor pays for the test.Your response was incorrect. Once again Coach for you to underatand.Apparently, you don't understand. The contactor pays for all tests that are required and noted in the contract documents.That wasn't the question.My answer above is very clear and the second note was only for emphasis.You only emphasized the fact that you are unclear. Please note that we are not here to wait our time. What the hell does that mean?

el_capitano
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Posted: Thu Aug 21st, 2008 07:06 pm

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Like always some people show their hidden side when they are criticized. At the office we call them “knows it all”. The professional term for it is: “ inflated ego”.

Please everybody, if you like to use this forum for your personal problems stay out of it. Let the rest of us use it to share information and learn from each other.

Once again I hold CAB responsible for emphasizing technicalities and failing to promote professionalism.

Coach
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Posted: Thu Aug 21st, 2008 09:03 pm

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el_capitano wrote: Like always some people show their hidden side when they are criticized. At the office we call them “knows it all”. The professional term for it is: “ inflated ego”.

Please everybody, if you like to use this forum for your personal problems stay out of it. Let the rest of us use it to share information and learn from each other.

Once again I hold CAB responsible for emphasizing technicalities and failing to promote professionalism.You crack me up. I love the waste of space with the oversized font, but the really humorous stuff is your holier than thou attitude and napoleon complex.Here's a sampling of the virtuous el_cap...
“whoever you are, you have a lot of spelling problems. I wonder how they let on the Board. May be you want to go back to elementary school and start from there. My uncle is a principal. Do you want me to ask him helping you out?”

[size= ]

“I was hoping that I could share my knwoledge and experience, and at the same time learn from those indidviduals who are more knowledgable. I did not know that I would become subject to contradictory and unprofessional ridicule. If you guys are guessing, please don't make any comments unless you are 100% sure, or you may confuse others.”

“Once I missed this stupid exam by 5 points, the following time by 34 points !!!! It is that stupid. ADAguy's name? Doesn't matter they are all a bunch of old timers who got their license by a handshake and now think they have all the rights to determine our fate. They should have been retired long time ago.”

“Please when you make a comment mention your source. Tells us where you got that piece of information, from a book, AIA documents, website , etc. If it is from a book, page number surely helps.”

”Your experience alone is not a reliable source, because my experience could be different and it is as good as yours.”

”If you are not sure about what you are saying let everybody know that you are just guessing or you are relying on your own experience.”

”No offense, but some people make comments as if they are the most informed in the world, and when it turns out that they were wrong they don’t apologize. This attitude does not help.”

I think you need to look in the mirror. And oh, by the way, I have yet to see you cite a source but you keep reminding us that you are allegedly licensed in another state. To that I say whoopee! We've all passed the ARE and are all eligible for licensure in Arizona.

exam
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Posted: Thu Aug 21st, 2008 09:51 pm

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Last edited on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 10:03 pm by exam

salt
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 05:21 am

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-who pais for tests and inspection- this part of the story can be read in A201/13.5

also in A201/12.1/ uncovering and correction of work: roughly- architect can require uncovering of covered work for examination (this is not inspection) - if work turns out to be in accordance with Contract Documents- owner pais to patch the stuff back together.

skyhook
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 01:25 pm

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globalevine wrote: an architect providing contract administration services orders inspection or testing of a building component.

who pays for this testing?

my understanding is that the contractor must pay for the inspection/testing, but that if the component passes he must be reimbursed by the owner.

is that right?

The original questions lack of clarity as to why the tests were ordered (dispute resolution or simply mandating existing cd spec) opened the door for competing interpretations.

Since this is essentially a learning forum, one could stay on point and seek early clarification from the original post, prior to entering into distracting banter armed only with competing interpretation of someone elses question.

It seems to me this would better benefit this community as a whole.

Peace - out.

Arch-PM in CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 06:07 pm

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Submitted for your review from AIA A201:

4.2.6        The Architect will have authority to reject Work that does not conform to the Contract Documents. Whenever the Architect considers it necessary or advisable, the Architect will have authority to require inspection or testing of the Work in accordance with Subparagraph 13.5.2 and 13.5.3, whether or not such Work is fabricated, installed or completed. However, neither this authority of the Architect nor a decision made in good faith either to exercise or not to exercise such authority shall give a rise to a duty or responsibility of the Architect to the Contractor, Subcontractors, material and equipment suppliers, their agents or employees, or other persons or entities performing portions of the Work.

13.5.2    If the Architect, Owner or public authorities having jurisdiction determine that portions of the work require additional testing, inspection or approval not included under Subparagraph 13.5.1, the Architect will, upon written authorization from the owner, instruct the Contractor to make arrangements for such testing, inspection or approval by an entity acceptable to the Owner, and the Contractor shall give timely notice to the Architect of when and where tests and inspections are to be made so that the Architect may be present for such procedures. Such costs, except as provided in Subparagraph 13.5.3, shall be at the Owner’s expense.

13.5.1    Tests, inspections and approvals of portions of the Work required by the Contract Documents or by laws, ordinances, rules, regulations or orders of public authorities having jurisdiction shall be made at an appropriate time. Unless otherwise provided, the Contractor shall make arrangements for such tests, inspections and approvals with an independent testing laboratory or entity acceptable to the Owner, or with the appropriate public authority, and shall bear all related costs of tests, inspections and approvals. The Contractor shall give the Architect timely notice of when and where tests and inspections are to be made so that the Architect may be present for such procedures. The Owner shall bear costs of tests, inspections or approvals which do not become requirements until after bids are received or negotiations concluded.

13.5.3   If such procedures for testing, inspection or approval under Subparagraphs 13.5.1 and 13.5.2 reveal failure of the portions of the Work to comply with requirements established by the Contract Documents, all costs made necessary by such failure including those of repeated procedures and compensation for the Architect’s services and expenses shall be at the Contractor’s expense

Last edited on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 06:14 pm by Arch-PM in CA

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