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klutzgolf
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 03:11 pm |
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I am having trouble getting my training setting approved and I am in need of some insight. My direct supervisor, a licensed architect, is a consultant to my firm. he is the only licensed architect that i work with, everything i do is under his supervision. we work in the same office, have daily contact, and he is in responsible charge of all the projects i work on. yet, ncarb says because i wrote 'consultant' as his title, the training setting is not acceptable. i have the same training that anyone else would, yet because my supervisor and i are technically not employed at the same firm it's not acceptable. we work on the same projects and get paid by the same guy, how is this not acceptable. does anyone have some insight as to how i can go about getting ncarb to reconsider this? - (if they approve this, i am eligible to take the ARE)
please help
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awapniak
Architect
| Joined: | Mon Mar 19th, 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 03:19 pm |
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klutzgolf wrote: I am having trouble getting my training setting approved and I am in need of some insight. My direct supervisor, a licensed architect, is a consultant to my firm. he is the only licensed architect that i work with, everything i do is under his supervision. we work in the same office, have daily contact, and he is in responsible charge of all the projects i work on. yet, ncarb says because i wrote 'consultant' as his title, the training setting is not acceptable. i have the same training that anyone else would, yet because my supervisor and i are technically not employed at the same firm it's not acceptable. we work on the same projects and get paid by the same guy, how is this not acceptable. does anyone have some insight as to how i can go about getting ncarb to reconsider this? - (if they approve this, i am eligible to take the ARE)
please help
Don't name the firm as your employer, and seek credit through the architect as your mentor. You don't have to be paid by an individual to recieve training units.
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 06:24 pm |
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You can try that, but unfortunately with NCARB this often won't work (even though it has been known to work with certain state boards in state-specific internship decisions). Once you submit the forms once to NCARB with information that they don't like, simply re-submitting the forms with tweaked information will usually just result in them being rejected again.
You're probably going to need to get the company you were working for to write a letter stating that you were mistaken and that this architect that you labeled as a "consultant" on your forms was actually a principal of the firm and directly employed by, or an owner of, the firm (and don't be too surprised if NCARB requires proof.)
Otherwise you'll probably need to count this in one of the other allowable training settings (for instance the one that allows design-related work in a setting other than an architecture firm.)Last edited on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 07:49 pm by Spellcaster
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rerun42
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| Location: | Atlanta, Georgia USA |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 07:29 pm |
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| The only time I was successful in getting them to change something is when they f'd up my training units. They screwed up 3 reports that I had to call and get them to put then into the correct categories. Document everything and keep multiple copies of everything you send them!
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Damn NCARB
Banned
| Joined: | Thu Aug 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 07:36 pm |
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I don't know enough about IDP to be specific but you need to read the policies involved and know them better than the average NCARB employee.
If you cannot locate specific language prohibiting your situation, then make them be specific as to why it's not allowed.
If the language is there, look for ways to mitigate it.
There is no logical reason why experience under the direct supervision of an architect should count regardless of who signs the checks. There are countless joint ventures and contractural rleationships that must muddy the water for many interns.
You can find a way to fix this. Don't take "no" for an answer. Back up your case with letters from all parties involved. Enlist the support of your state board if you have to -- NCARB works for them.
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rerun42
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 07:41 pm |
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Damn NCARB wrote: There is no logical reason...
NCARB ISN"T logical!
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Spellcaster
Architect
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 07:44 pm |
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The problem is that the specific language is there. NCARB conditions do not recognize "independent contractors" as defined by the U.S. Department of Labor.
They also state that for an experience to count in Training Setting A the organization must be in the charge of a person acting as a principal who is (a) a registered architect and (b) the person in charge of the organization’s architectural practice, either alone or with other registered architects. (This stuff is all in the footnotes of the Training Settings section of the IDP booklet.)
You are probably either going to have to convince NCARB to "reclassify" your supervisor as a Principal of the firm and not a contractor, or you're going to have to consider this to be experience in Training Setting E - in which case the maximum units you can count from this employment situation would be 117.Last edited on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:45 pm by Spellcaster
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klutzgolf
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:08 pm |
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| thank you all for the comments, they are helping me formulate my response, i will say this, my supervisor, is in complete control over all of the architectural projects my company handles, he has the authority to fire me, and he is in responsible charge of all the architectural projects, he considers himself a consultant because he wants to pursue other ventures that do not involve my company. i probably have more one on one contact with my supervisor in this setting than do most people in larger traditional firms, and being that my company is small, i am exposed to everything, and pretty much can handle everything except for the seal and signature. i agree that, i need to be educated enough about their idp guidelines so i can refer to it when i need to. i have already written a letter explaining my unique situation to them, however, the idp record evaluator in-charge of my case simply says, 'well, you wrote consultant so sorry', instead of helping me and telling me what i can do or what my options are. where as if i would have wrote 'principal' we wouldn't be having this conversation. does anyone know if there is an appeals process? Last edited on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:11 pm by klutzgolf
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klutzgolf
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:24 pm |
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| i did see the 'independent contractor' note, but i am not an independent contractor. you could argue, that my supervisor is, but i think the wording is intended to mean that the 'intern', me in this case cannot be an independent contractor
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:44 pm |
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There's no formal appeal process for the IDP stage. But you can call and ask for the name of the name of the supervisor of your record-evaluator, and/or the name of the director of the IDP program and send a letter directly to those people. It may help if you can get the firm to write a letter too - but only if they will say that this supervisor is a principal in charge of the company and an employee or owner of the company.
The problem is that the consultant/independent contractor status is really incompatible with NCARB's definition of "principal", in that the company is probably not "in the charge" of someone they are classifying as a consultant.
You said that your supervisor "considers himself a consultant because he wants to pursue other ventures that do not involve my company." It doesn't really matter what he "considers himself" - what matters for Dept. of Labor purposes is how he's being paid and what type of contract he has with the company. Are you sure that he's being paid as a consultant/independent contractor? Find out from your firm what your supervisor's actual legal status is with the firm.Last edited on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:46 pm by Spellcaster
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awapniak
Architect
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 09:28 pm |
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NCARB doesn't care about how you get paid.
The less you tell them the better. Just get the process over with by telling NCARB what it wants to hear and be done with them.
Training Setting A: Training under the direct supervision1 of a registered architect2 and when the organization's practice (a) is in the charge of a person practicing as a principal3 and (b) encompasses the comprehensive practice of architecture, including each of the training areas.
“Direct supervision” means that degree of supervision by a person overseeing the work of another, where both work in the same office in circumstances where personal contact is routine, whereby the supervisor has both control over and detailed professional knowledge of the work prepared under his or her supervision.
While "NCARB conditions do not recognize work performed by "independent contractors" as defined by the U.S. Department of Labor," "To earn training units in settings A through E if you wereif you were not an employee of the organization in which you received your training, you must submit evidence that you were nonetheless working under the direct supervision of the person overseeing your work." This applies to you. NCARB has no policy on the architect's status as an independent contractor, nor do they need to know about his status as an independent contractor.
You were directly supervised. The mentor does NOT have to be the principal. End of story.
You're fine. Just redo the paperwork.
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FinitoCompleto
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 09:57 pm |
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I had a similar situation and encountered the same reaction from NCARB: "well you already used the word 'consultant', so too bad!" I called and emailed several times but everyone I talked to stuck to the policy that consultants don't count as supervisors in category A. They let me put it in another category but they wouldn't count it as A.
I had problems with NCARB about having too much experience from a foreign firm too, and I had to get notorized letters from the employers to explain the situation and in that case some of the time ended up counting toward IDP and some didn't.
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awapniak
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 10:06 pm |
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FinitoCompleto wrote: I had a similar situation and encountered the same reaction from NCARB: "well you already used the word 'consultant', so too bad!" I called and emailed several times but everyone I talked to stuck to the policy that consultants don't count as supervisors in category A. They let me put it in another category but they wouldn't count it as A.
I had problems with NCARB about having too much experience from a foreign firm too, and I had to get notorized letters from the employers to explain the situation and in that case some of the time ended up counting toward IDP and some didn't.
Be nice to NCARB. They've got you by the kahunas.
Sue Deneselya from IDP was very accomodating to me when I was in IDP - even after I screwed up the forms.
SDenesely(AT)ncarb.org
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joycycle
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 05:17 am |
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Good luck - don't give up - I had problems with getting paper work through for Exam Registration and I just kept calling (to the point of harassing the lady who helped me) and working with the State board to go around NCARB. I don't know what is up these days with NCARB, but they are really behind the game and pretty delinquant with following through. Even when you get to the point that you think it is all worked out, follow-up again to make sure things were recorded correctly.
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One Fella
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 03:59 pm |
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| get a lawyer, if you can't afford one, get used to bending over and taking it in this profession.
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