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zaiwanda
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 04:18 am

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I have a former employer who refuses to sign 10 months worth of employment verification for IDP. I worked for him 5 years ago and we always had problems and he has never acted professionally. Has anyone else had an employer refuse or ignore their form 162s? The guy is holding me up, I could have started the exams last year! Thanks for any help.

Amanda

AbracaPocus
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 04:45 am

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Here are some options:

1. Were there any other architects on staff at the firm? Another supervisor or manager who worked in the firm at that time could sign - it doesn't need to be the owner.

2. Is your former boss an AIA member? You could remind him that the AIA code of conduct requires that he cooperate with IDP. Of course, this is only useful as a way to try to pressure him to sign. The AIA can't actually force him to sign. The worst they can do is get him censured or sanctioned by the AIA (which really just means that he gets an official warning and his name shows up in AIA publications as a bad guy - and it takes them a year or so to do even that).

3. Call or email NCARB, explain the situation, and ask how to proceed (actually this should probably be option #1). In some cases they will let you document the experience "indirectly" - there's even a form for that - but I think it sometimes requires three other architects who knew you at that time to sign off on the employment experience.

4. Contact your state board for advice, and check your state's laws and rules to see if they have any written policy that requires employers to cooperate in employees' professional development. Most states don't, but a few do.

Another thought: Florida allows interns to start testing prior to full completion of IDP. You may be able to start testing now if you have enough documented experience already.

Also: if you end up accumulating enough IDP units to be finished with IDP without counting that job, then you don't necessarily need to count it. In that case you need to let NCARB know that this employer is uncooperative and that you don't want to count it - because otherwise they will hold up your record forever waiting for that particular signed form.

Last edited on Fri Apr 18th, 2008 04:57 am by AbracaPocus

zaiwanda
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 06:03 am

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thanks for all the professional advice abracapocus!

1. the architect I worked for was a one man show, the only architect in an office of rotating employees. he is also a wellknown local architect (maybe thats one way to go about it.) he is aia affiliated, so maybe I will try contacting them.

2. I can't get licensed in FL b/c I only have my B. of Design, the 4 year arch. degree. Here you need the Bach or M. of Arch and its another 2+ years of school. I already exceed the alternate education requirement of many states but a lapse of 10 months will screw up NCARb I'm sure!

3. Form 133 requires the "deceased supervisor's name"!!!!

I might just have to take him to court ;>

Last edited on Fri Apr 18th, 2008 06:12 am by zaiwanda

brudgers
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 03:58 pm

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zaiwanda wrote: I have a former employer who refuses to sign 10 months worth of employment verification for IDP. I worked for him 5 years ago and we always had problems and he has never acted professionally. Has anyone else had an employer refuse or ignore their form 162s? The guy is holding me up, I could have started the exams last year! Thanks for any help.

Amanda

I would suggest writing a cover letter with the form you need signed.

Make it short, dry and unemotional, "please help me document my experience from xx/xx/xx to xx/xx/xx."

Don't reference any previous conversations or make arguements.

Copy the Chairwoman of the Florida Board, President of the Florida AIA, the Local AIA, and NCARB with an additional cover letter referencing his license number, NCARB certificate, and AIA membership number.

Send it via registered mail.

After delivery, call the architect to follow up.

Offer to come by immediately to pick up the completed form.

If there's a problem, don't argue, just take notes.

Mail a copy of the phone conversation memorandum to the same parties in the same way.

architect54
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Posted: Tue Apr 29th, 2008 10:57 pm

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zaiwanda wrote: thanks for all the professional advice abracapocus!

1. the architect I worked for was a one man show, the only architect in an office of rotating employees. he is also a wellknown local architect (maybe thats one way to go about it.) he is aia affiliated, so maybe I will try contacting them.

2. I can't get licensed in FL b/c I only have my B. of Design, the 4 year arch. degree. Here you need the Bach or M. of Arch and its another 2+ years of school. I already exceed the alternate education requirement of many states but a lapse of 10 months will screw up NCARb I'm sure!

3. Form 133 requires the "deceased supervisor's name"!!!!

I might just have to take him to court ;>

From what I understand regarding #2, you're saying you have a 4 year degree and the state board you plan on applying to requires 2 extra years of experience plus the regular 3 years? I'm in a similar boat. (The suck boat, I call it. I won't be able to practice in 6 or 8 states, that require a professional degree even for reciprocity. On top of that for reciprocity, I gotta document 6 more years of experience for Broadly Experienced Architect! The suck boat II.)

Anyways...

"a lapse of 10 months will screw up NCARb I'm sure!" Gaps in your record, shouldn't be a problem. I've got gaps in my state record in NY and they don't have a problem. You simply need to document your experience. So if 10 months pass, and you don't get anything out of your old employer, forget him. Notify NCARB, regarding that old 10 month period. Then have your current employer sign for your current 10 months. There's a saying: "Time heals all wounds."

If you're in a similar boat as me, what IDP wants and what your state board want are actually two different things. IDP wants 3 years aka 700 units (700? or whatever that number is) and your state board wants 5 years. They may want it documented by NCARB. In NY, once you have your certificate from IDP, they say ok. Then they apply their criteria and tell you what they accept from your IDP record. I completed my units and then some with IDP and NYS didn't accept a year and a half (or was it 2 years). I don't remember. I was so disappointed, I blocked out those bad memories. So I got my IDP certificate, which didn't seem to mean jack to the NYS board.

I'm dragging on. Try and get the 10 months. Keep trying. Don't let it frustrate you. And if it does, remember in this one instance time will replace what you've lost.

... actually it won't exactly, but you get what I'm saying ...

Oh and what do you mean: "I already exceed the alternate education requirement of many states... " Whatever state board you may be applying to, I don't think you can exceed the alternate education requirement. Do you mean experience requirement? Because you can't really exceed that either. Either you have it or you don't. Your not disqualified for too much education or experience.

zaiwanda
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Posted: Sun May 11th, 2008 07:01 am

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Architect 54-

Yes, you are right, I DID mean alternate education. Some states will allow a 4 year architecture degree plus the required IDP plus an additional 4 or so years of experience. I have the 4 year degree plus 9 years work experience.

I mailed a package to my former employer through DHL. I have the signature confirmation so they can't claim to have not receievd it. I also attached a copy of my W-2 form for when I worked there. We'll see.

So are you licensed or not?

NCARB has all my forms for work through Dec 2007. When I checked my online record, it was ll f'd up. I worked for 4 companies and they only listed two. They have the wrong dates for these companies as well. Can they do anything right???

I CAN get licensed in NY with my 4 year degree and experience. I thought of MD as well since they have low licensing fees. Maybe try there and then do the reciprocity license through NY.

architect54
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Posted: Sun May 11th, 2008 06:31 pm

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Nope. I'm not licensed yet. I'm studying. I finish my experience requirements this coming Friday 05/16/2008.

Be careful. Contact and question the board, where you plan on getting licensed. Make sure you meet their requirements. Getting your IDP certificate from NCARB, will not satisfy all of the state requirements where you plan on getting licensed. That was the point I was trying to make. IDP requirements do not equal State requirements. Amazing, but true.

Now I could see why someone might want to document everything through IDP/NCARB. Everything in one place, easy to transmit to another board... But you'll never know if your state accepts all of that experience until you submit your IDP record. So in my opinion IDP is good for three years, that's it. Then consider using state forms, especially if you know to which state you're applying.

Good Luck.

Last edited on Sun May 11th, 2008 07:03 pm by architect54

zaiwanda
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 04:40 am

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I FINALLY GOT A HOLD OF SOMEONE AT THE ARCHITECT'S OFFICE, THE SECRETARY. SHE TOLD ME THAT THE ARCHITECT WILL NOT SPEAK TO ME AND HE REFUSES TO SIGN MY PAPERS. THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO. I SPOKE W/ NCARB AND THEY SAID THERE IS NO PROTOCOL FOR THIS AND SORRY YOU TORTURED YOURSELF FOR A YEAR AND FOR NOTHING.

GOOD TO KNOW OUR MONEY IS BEING USED FRUITFULLY. ALSO GOOD TO KNOW HOW OUR FIELD REWARDS AIA MEMBERS.

archigator
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 12:37 pm

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zaiwanda wrote: I FINALLY GOT A HOLD OF SOMEONE AT THE ARCHITECT'S OFFICE, THE SECRETARY. SHE TOLD ME THAT THE ARCHITECT WILL NOT SPEAK TO ME AND HE REFUSES TO SIGN MY PAPERS. THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO. I SPOKE W/ NCARB AND THEY SAID THERE IS NO PROTOCOL FOR THIS AND SORRY YOU TORTURED YOURSELF FOR A YEAR AND FOR NOTHING.

GOOD TO KNOW OUR MONEY IS BEING USED FRUITFULLY. ALSO GOOD TO KNOW HOW OUR FIELD REWARDS AIA MEMBERS.

Don't feel bad. I was a partner (start-up) for a new architecture firm (I had an ID license) as well as a 6 year Master AE degree, (unlicensed as an architect). After about 3 years the firm split up and when I went back to document my time. My ex-partners decided they did not want to sign off on my IDP. I was FURIOUS. I went through school with them, they came to me to start the firm. I already had an established ID firm that floated money to AE firm and held them abreast and this is how they treated me. It was my money that set the firm up and paid for all of the initial costs, furnishing office, etc.

After about a year pleading with them they "pick and chose" what they wanted to sign off on and gave me only about 9 months of IDP time. I was furious. They moved to my city, in my building, with my established clientelle, my reputation, etc. and then treated me like that.

Goes to show you how UNFAIR life really is. And how unappreciative people can be!

Sorry about your situation, but you just have to move on!

zaiwanda
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 06:48 pm

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Wow, you certainly beat me with your tale! What are you doing now?

Go Gators

archigator
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 07:02 pm

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Because I had partners way back when I took part of my exams and never completed since they signed and sealed drawings. 25 years later, I am back to complete my exams, just finished the last one and now studying for LEEDS. Since then I started another firm which I resigned from in 1999 and then started a developing company where I was develpong vacation townhomes until last year when the market fell out. After the market went sour I decided to come back and finish my boards so I could rule my own life and not have to rely on another. I'm not sure, I may go back and get a MS in Pedagogy in Architecture and teach. Weighing my options until I get my results. Good luck to you.. Get it done while you are young!!! No one can take that license away from you (except the state I guess!) :cool:

archigator
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 07:03 pm

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archigator wrote: Because I had partners way back when I took part of my exams and never completed since they signed and sealed drawings. 25 years later, I am back to complete my exams, just finished the last one and now studying for LEEDS. Since then I started another firm which I resigned from in 1999 and then started a developing company where I was develpong vacation townhomes until last year when the market fell out. After the market went sour I decided to come back and finish my boards so I could rule my own life and not have to rely on another. I'm not sure, I may go back and get a MS in Pedagogy in Architecture and teach. Weighing my options until I get my results. Good luck to you.. Get it done while you are young!!! No one can take that license away from you (except the state I guess!) :cool:

To give you an idea of my age, my daughter is in Ft. Lauderdale in Law School at Nova, see you are from Ft.L.

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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 07:17 pm

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Archigator: this probably doesn't matter at this point since it sounds like your IDP issues are long done with. But if you were a partner/principal in a firm - rather than an employee - then NCARB has "indirect reporting" forms, instead of the usual employment reporting forms. These require three references from licensed architects (unrelated to your firm) who knew you and were familiar with your work. So in your case you would not necessarily need your former partners to sign the forms, if you could get other architects to sign.

Zaiwanda: this most likely won't help with your NCARB situation, but you should file a complaint with the AIA about your former boss. If he's a member he is required to support interns in their professional development and cooperate with IDP. All the AIA will do is censure or sanction him - which just means he'll get a letter saying "Bad employer, shame on you" - but since this becomes public information he may think twice about not cooperating, or at least won't screw over future interns.

Last edited on Fri Jun 6th, 2008 07:19 pm by AbracaPocus

archigator
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 07:22 pm

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I had to have three reference letters as well as the IDP documentation. Payed twice to have it sent to FLA., once in the 90's, once this past year!! it has been an ordeal!! But all done now, that's why I suggest to people not to wait!!

Thanks for your help though!

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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 03:55 pm

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archigator wrote: zaiwanda wrote: I FINALLY GOT A HOLD OF SOMEONE AT THE ARCHITECT'S OFFICE, THE SECRETARY. SHE TOLD ME THAT THE ARCHITECT WILL NOT SPEAK TO ME AND HE REFUSES TO SIGN MY PAPERS. THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO. I SPOKE W/ NCARB AND THEY SAID THERE IS NO PROTOCOL FOR THIS AND SORRY YOU TORTURED YOURSELF FOR A YEAR AND FOR NOTHING.

GOOD TO KNOW OUR MONEY IS BEING USED FRUITFULLY. ALSO GOOD TO KNOW HOW OUR FIELD REWARDS AIA MEMBERS.

Don't feel bad. I was a partner (start-up) for a new architecture firm (I had an ID license) as well as a 6 year Master AE degree, (unlicensed as an architect). After about 3 years the firm split up and when I went back to document my time. My ex-partners decided they did not want to sign off on my IDP. I was FURIOUS. I went through school with them, they came to me to start the firm. I already had an established ID firm that floated money to AE firm and held them abreast and this is how they treated me. It was my money that set the firm up and paid for all of the initial costs, furnishing office, etc.

After about a year pleading with them they "pick and chose" what they wanted to sign off on and gave me only about 9 months of IDP time. I was furious. They moved to my city, in my building, with my established clientelle, my reputation, etc. and then treated me like that.

Goes to show you how UNFAIR life really is. And how unappreciative people can be!

Sorry about your situation, but you just have to move on!

I'm a little confused. Did this experience happen at an ID firm? (or FL?) I've got some tales of my own that are fairly similar, it would be interesting if the people involved in your sorry tale were in Idaho.

I have some war stories of my own regarding trying to get IDP employment verification forms signed. I found that the about 50% of about 12 AIA members I interacted with were actually the biggest con artists and the least helpful. Based on my experiences (and perhaps I just had bad luck I don't know), I don't think the AIA really has much integrity. Its really like a mafia refuge for the old and tired.

archigator
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 04:42 pm

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One Fella wrote: archigator wrote: zaiwanda wrote: I FINALLY GOT A HOLD OF SOMEONE AT THE ARCHITECT'S OFFICE, THE SECRETARY. SHE TOLD ME THAT THE ARCHITECT WILL NOT SPEAK TO ME AND HE REFUSES TO SIGN MY PAPERS. THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO. I SPOKE W/ NCARB AND THEY SAID THERE IS NO PROTOCOL FOR THIS AND SORRY YOU TORTURED YOURSELF FOR A YEAR AND FOR NOTHING.

GOOD TO KNOW OUR MONEY IS BEING USED FRUITFULLY. ALSO GOOD TO KNOW HOW OUR FIELD REWARDS AIA MEMBERS.

Don't feel bad. I was a partner (start-up) for a new architecture firm (I had an ID license) as well as a 6 year Master AE degree, (unlicensed as an architect). After about 3 years the firm split up and when I went back to document my time. My ex-partners decided they did not want to sign off on my IDP. I was FURIOUS. I went through school with them, they came to me to start the firm. I already had an established ID firm that floated money to AE firm and held them abreast and this is how they treated me. It was my money that set the firm up and paid for all of the initial costs, furnishing office, etc.

After about a year pleading with them they "pick and chose" what they wanted to sign off on and gave me only about 9 months of IDP time. I was furious. They moved to my city, in my building, with my established clientelle, my reputation, etc. and then treated me like that.

Goes to show you how UNFAIR life really is. And how unappreciative people can be!

Sorry about your situation, but you just have to move on!

I'm a little confused. Did this experience happen at an ID firm? (or FL?) I've got some tales of my own that are fairly similar, it would be interesting if the people involved in your sorry tale were in Idaho.

I have some war stories of my own regarding trying to get IDP employment verification forms signed. I found that the about 50% of about 12 AIA members I interacted with were actually the biggest con artists and the least helpful. Based on my experiences (and perhaps I just had bad luck I don't know), I don't think the AIA really has much integrity. Its really like a mafia refuge for the old and tired.

My experience was in Florida. It amazes me how many times people confuse being registered with being in AIA. They will ask, "Are you AIA?"

IKATU!!
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 05:06 pm

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HI Z, just to let you know in Florida you can start testing with 235 IDP credits. Have you looked into that??

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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 05:19 pm

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archigator wrote: One Fella wrote: archigator wrote: zaiwanda wrote: I FINALLY GOT A HOLD OF SOMEONE AT THE ARCHITECT'S OFFICE, THE SECRETARY. SHE TOLD ME THAT THE ARCHITECT WILL NOT SPEAK TO ME AND HE REFUSES TO SIGN MY PAPERS. THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO. I SPOKE W/ NCARB AND THEY SAID THERE IS NO PROTOCOL FOR THIS AND SORRY YOU TORTURED YOURSELF FOR A YEAR AND FOR NOTHING.

GOOD TO KNOW OUR MONEY IS BEING USED FRUITFULLY. ALSO GOOD TO KNOW HOW OUR FIELD REWARDS AIA MEMBERS.

Don't feel bad. I was a partner (start-up) for a new architecture firm (I had an ID license) as well as a 6 year Master AE degree, (unlicensed as an architect). After about 3 years the firm split up and when I went back to document my time. My ex-partners decided they did not want to sign off on my IDP. I was FURIOUS. I went through school with them, they came to me to start the firm. I already had an established ID firm that floated money to AE firm and held them abreast and this is how they treated me. It was my money that set the firm up and paid for all of the initial costs, furnishing office, etc.

After about a year pleading with them they "pick and chose" what they wanted to sign off on and gave me only about 9 months of IDP time. I was furious. They moved to my city, in my building, with my established clientelle, my reputation, etc. and then treated me like that.

Goes to show you how UNFAIR life really is. And how unappreciative people can be!

Sorry about your situation, but you just have to move on!

I'm a little confused. Did this experience happen at an ID firm? (or FL?) I've got some tales of my own that are fairly similar, it would be interesting if the people involved in your sorry tale were in Idaho.

I have some war stories of my own regarding trying to get IDP employment verification forms signed. I found that the about 50% of about 12 AIA members I interacted with were actually the biggest con artists and the least helpful. Based on my experiences (and perhaps I just had bad luck I don't know), I don't think the AIA really has much integrity. Its really like a mafia refuge for the old and tired.

My experience was in Florida. It amazes me how many times people confuse being registered with being in AIA. They will ask, "Are you AIA?"
Call me schizophrenic but I think this is what the AIA is trying to do, i.e., monopolize the collective power of the profession. Their power is directly proportionate to the public's perception of the degree to which the AIA dictates the practice of architecture. They have been very successful in this regard, to the detriment of the average architect.

The professional organization similar to the AIA for medicine is the AMA. The AMA is much less influential in the medical professions than the AIA is in the profession of architecture. Doctors make 200 times as much as architects on average, according to the US Dept of Labor. I think the lesson here is quite obvious, at some point architects have got to get the AIA to release its death grip that it has on the profession or else face the fact that perpetual slavery is the only option.

Last edited on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 05:20 pm by One Fella

King
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 06:54 pm

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Since it is July 2008, wouldn't you already have almost all of the 10 months experience if not all with your current firm? If it is true, then you do not have to deal with this AH. Don't take him to court! It is not worth it, and I don't see any chance of you winning. You probably need to prove to the judge with your time sheets signed by him or other evidences...

10 months is not that much IMO. I know people who have lost 10 years of experience.

Last edited on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 06:58 pm by King

brudgers
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 07:19 pm

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One Fella wrote: I'm a little confused. Did this experience happen at an ID firm? (or FL?) I've got some tales of my own that are fairly similar, it would be interesting if the people involved in your sorry tale were in Idaho.Why am I not surprised?

I have some war stories of my own regarding trying to get IDP employment verification forms signed. I found that the about 50% of about 12 AIA members I interacted with were actually the biggest con artists and the least helpful. Based on my experiences (and perhaps I just had bad luck I don't know), I don't think the AIA really has much integrity. Its really like a mafia refuge for the old and tired.

If you've got a problem with everyone, maybe everyone isn't the problem.

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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 07:20 pm

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brudgers, A lot of your comments are quick on the draw but short on depth or reason. Your wit and abilities are in demand at the local Taco Bell taking orders at the drive thru.

There is a big difference with having a problem with 50% of 12 seedy architects and everyone. Above is a classic example of someone who has a problem with reading comprehension and then jumping off the proverbail cliff to a hasty conclusion...

Last edited on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 07:31 pm by One Fella

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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 08:39 pm

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Maybe your run of "bad luck" is something else?

One Fella
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 08:51 pm

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Bad Luck? When did "luck" enter into the conversation? You're all over the place. This is where I stop wasting any more of my time legitimizing your childish banter by writing you off as a hopeless waste of energy. I shall probably not bother with your posts from here on out. I'm confident at this point that I can firmly classify you as one of the brain dead zombies I describe elsewhere in the forum, as evidenced by your repeated lack of quality to your posts I have read. Should you have anything intelligent to communicate (I hope its even possible) I might choose to rengage in verbal intercourse at such time. Auf Wiedersehen!

secret
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 08:58 pm

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One Fella wrote: Bad Luck? When did "luck" enter into the conversation? You're all over the place. This is where I stop wasting any more of my time legitimizing your childish banter by writing you off as a hopeless waste of energy. I shall probably not bother with your posts from here on out. I'm confident at this point that I can firmly classify you as one of the brain dead zombies I describe elsewhere in the forum, as evidenced by your repeated lack of quality to your posts I have read. Should you have anything intelligent to communicate (I hope its even possible) I might choose to rengage in verbal intercourse at such time. Auf Wiedersehen!
Personal attacks are so not cool. Please don't do it. Be constructive and NOT personal with your criticism. Critique away, for there is plenty here for you. When it gets personal, you need to just make like a deodorant and roll on kiddo.

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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 09:16 pm

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point taken, will do...sorry if there was any offense given, just trying to shoot straight.

secret
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 09:31 pm

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One Fella wrote: point taken, will do...sorry if there was any offense given, just trying to shoot straight.
Shoot straight or crooked all day long........just don't make it personal, not necessary to make your case!

brudgers
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 09:40 pm