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ralphonabbs
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 03:03 pm |
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Hi guys,
NAAB signed a document named "Canberra Accord", which might help some of us waive the foreign professional degree evaluation via ESSA.
According to this document, if you got a professional degree from one country out of British, Korea, Mexico, Australia, Canada, America, or China, your professional degree will be recognized by all other 6 Countries.
If you have already contact with NAAB about this issue, please drop a line. I will ask them soon and report more information to you guys.
hao
Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 03:10 pm by ralphonabbs
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AbracaPocus
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 03:14 pm |
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| NAAB signed on to this agreement this past spring. But as of yet none of NCARB's policies have changed as a result. One could imagine that they may change in the future, but probably not until there's been time for schools to implement all the requirements of that accord, and for the first cohorts of students to have gone all the way through programs that adhere to the accord... Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 03:17 pm by AbracaPocus
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brudgers
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 06:10 pm |
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ralphonabbs wrote: Hi guys,
NAAB signed a document named "Canberra Accord", which might help some of us waive the foreign professional degree evaluation via ESSA.
According to this document, if you got a professional degree from one country out of British, Korea, Mexico, Australia, Canada, America, or China, your professional degree will be recognized by all other 6 Countries.
If you have already contact with NAAB about this issue, please drop a line. I will ask them soon and report more information to you guys.
hao
I doubt it.
Education requirements are ultimately set by the states.
There is no national recognition of degrees in the US.
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AbracaPocus
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 06:21 pm |
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That's true, but about two thirds of states toe the NCARB line where it comes to foreign degrees. So if NCARB adopts this as a measure of equivalency - as has been discussed by NCARB recently - then it might well do away with the EESA requirement for many who were educated in countries covered by this accord. Eventually.
It's just not likely to happen for several years, and certainly wouldn't be retroactive to include anyone who graduated before their school fell under this agreement.Last edited on Thu Jul 31st, 2008 01:38 am by AbracaPocus
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Coach
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 07:50 pm |
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| This all sounds like a big mistake to me.
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shinto909
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 10:40 pm |
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i think it is more likely that ncarb would just update requirements- i believe that they are making english mandatory for the ARE
a flat out waiver of education requirements of any kind will prove disastrous in my opinion
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AbracaPocus
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Posted: Fri Aug 1st, 2008 12:05 am |
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| It wouldn't be a waiver of education requirements - it would be an agreement that all accredited architecture schools in the accord would have the same minimum requirements and therefore be considered equivalent.
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stl-guy
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Posted: Fri Aug 1st, 2008 08:30 am |
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AbracaPocus wrote: It wouldn't be a waiver of education requirements - it would be an agreement that all accredited architecture schools in the accord would have the same minimum requirements and therefore be considered equivalent.
I will vigorously lobby against this NCARB agreement until it is amended. The Broadly Based Architect rules for American Architects first need to be changed. It is not about foreign students or architects but about what comes first, we live here.
IMO Americans should be priority no matter what talent the foreign person may have.
NAAB is maybe worthy for most incoming architects and so is IDP.
It is Not really fair for those in the business that have been mentoring the newbies for years who are not NAAB accredited and wish to become NCARB Certified or gain reciprocity in a state that has adopted NAAB only rules while some foreign architects living in the USA can without any real certified credentials.
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brudgers
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Posted: Fri Aug 1st, 2008 02:37 pm |
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A little competition never hurt anyone.
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shinto909
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Posted: Fri Aug 1st, 2008 03:26 pm |
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| i would be interested to know more of the motivation behind the initial 1 time post
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AbracaPocus
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Posted: Fri Aug 1st, 2008 06:49 pm |
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I will vigorously lobby against this NCARB agreement until it is amended.
Just to be clear, there is no NCARB policy about this at all.
There is no NCARB "agreement" to amend.
This is purely an NAAB matter at this point. There has been initial discussion about it by NCARB - I read about it a few months back in state board minutes - but that's all it is at this point, just discussion.
IF any NCARB polices are ever affected by this it will not happen for some years.
And, as with any NCARB policy, it will be up to each individual state board to decide whether to adopt it.
IMO Americans should be priority no matter what talent the foreign person may have.
NAAB is maybe worthy for most incoming architects and so is IDP.
It is Not really fair for those in the business that have been mentoring the newbies for years who are not NAAB accredited and wish to become NCARB Certified or gain reciprocity in a state that has adopted NAAB only rules while some foreign architects living in the USA can without any real certified credentials.
For a school to be a part of this accord it will have to have periodic accreditation visits and assessment reports by an international committee - much like NAAB conducts at present in the US - so a degree from any school in the accord should be a "real certified credential", equivalent to an NAAB-accredited degree.
Essentially this is the same thing as the current agreement between the US and Canada to reciprocally recognize each others' accredited professional architecture degrees.
Currently EESA evaluation is a way of retroactively comparing individual foreign degrees with NAAB standards and determining where deficiencies exist, if any, and whether to consider it equivalent to the "real certified credential" of the NAAB degree.
This accord would be a good thing for anybody wanting to prepare themselves to be able to work in any of these countries. They wouldn't have to worry about the possibility that an EESA evaluation or similar after-the-fact evaluation will find their education deficient.
Last edited on Fri Aug 1st, 2008 07:57 pm by AbracaPocus
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alomu
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 01:13 am |
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shinto909 wrote: i would be interested to know more of the motivation behind the initial 1 time post
I suspect the the OP is not from the USA and wishes to conduct business in the USA and, has found some hurdles to jump to achieve this.
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stl-guy
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 01:19 am |
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brudgers wrote: A little competition never hurt anyone.
Okay, sure.
Let's give up some more US jobs.
B.
You know I hate talking politics.
This issue disturbs me though. I'm not going to add to it.
Last edited on Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 01:24 am by stl-guy
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Coach
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 05:40 am |
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I understand your point and agree, to a point.
There are many Americans who attend school abroad. Many of them get screwed because of NAAB. Mind you, I have little pity for them because most didn't do their homework and come home and cry.
But the exciting part is the chance for some distance learning accreditation. I believe there is a worthy school in Australia that has a completely DL degree. The question is whether they will qualify.
I absolutely agree that the BEA is absurd.
And IDP should be 5hitcanned.
"So many problems, so little time...."
"... I know, let's make it easier to use a foreign degree!"
Yep, a priorities problem.
For all of you conspiracy buffs, this does fit nicely into the new world/one world order doesn't it?
Last edited on Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 05:41 am by Coach
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stl-guy
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 06:46 am |
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Coach wrote: I understand your point and agree, to a point.
There are many Americans who attend school abroad. Many of them get screwed because of NAAB. Mind you, I have little pity for them because most didn't do their homework and come home and cry.
But the exciting part is the chance for some distance learning accreditation. I believe there is a worthy school in Australia that has a completely DL degree. The question is whether they will qualify.
I absolutely agree that the BEA is absurd.
And IDP should be 5hitcanned.
"So many problems, so little time...."
"... I know, let's make it easier to use a foreign degree!"
Yep, a priorities problem.
For all of you conspiracy buffs, this does fit nicely into the new world/one world order doesn't it?
I read your note. I agree on many of your points but as I mentioned. I'm not going to get involved with this discussion. It is beyond basic politics. Obviously I have a strong a opinion. I'm not going to voice it here though.
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brudgers
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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 03:18 pm |
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stl-guy wrote: brudgers wrote: A little competition never hurt anyone.
Okay, sure.
Let's give up some more US jobs.
B.
You know I hate talking politics.
This issue disturbs me though. I'm not going to add to it.
Architecture schools which celebrate cotton candy and tennis bracelets don't deserve protection.
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stl-guy
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 02:28 am |
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brudgers wrote: stl-guy wrote: brudgers wrote: A little competition never hurt anyone.
Okay, sure.
Let's give up some more US jobs.
B.
You know I hate talking politics.
This issue disturbs me though. I'm not going to add to it.
Architecture schools which celebrate cotton candy and tennis bracelets don't deserve protection.
Well,
You know what they say about opinions.....
And you certainly have one.
You are entitled to yours.
I have mine too.
My beef is not with the schools, If anything it is more about the the legacy folks that graduated from the School of Hard Knocks.
Just because these people have not attended an NEEB program, they are completely left out while they are experienced and qualified.
Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 02:29 am by stl-guy
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alomu
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 03:14 am |
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<snip> Just because these people have not attended an NEEB program, they are completely left out while they are experienced and qualified.
STL- I agree with this thought and admire your stance.
For me, and my experiences, I have noticed (IMO) the best members of my team are the one's that went through the experience thing, and never attended a day in a NAAB school, or any school for that matter.
Give me the experienced guy vs. the schooled guy any day. I have voiced this opinion many a time on this forum. (this is not to say that school is bad, so please folks, no bad feelings on this. It is not my intention.)
Just to qualify myself, I have 12yrs of "college" and more degrees than I need.
I have not thought of this in 30 yrs, however, now that I remember my school experiences, "talk-a-tech-ture" was what I witnessed in school.
I read the other day in PD where the question was "What are meeting minutes" and "What is a change order". After reading this, I became quite sad.
IMO: an "experienced" architect would never ask such a question.
Hopefully, there is "Not a Flame On" from my response.
Sincerely, alomu.
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stl-guy
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 07:00 am |
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alomu wrote: <snip> Just because these people have not attended an NEEB program, they are completely left out while they are experienced and qualified.
STL- I agree with this thought and admire your stance.
For me, and my experiences, I have noticed (IMO) the best members of my team are the one's that went through the experience thing, and never attended a day in a NAAB school, or any school for that matter.
Give me the experienced guy vs. the schooled guy any day. I have voiced this opinion many a time on this forum. (this is not to say that school is bad, so please folks, no bad feelings on this. It is not my intention.)
Just to qualify myself, I have 12yrs of "college" and more degrees than I need.
I have not thought of this in 30 yrs, however, now that I remember my school experiences, "talk-a-tech-ture" was what I witnessed in school.
I read the other day in PD where the question was "What are meeting minutes" and "What is a change order". After reading this, I became quite sad.
IMO: an "experienced" architect would never ask such a question.
Hopefully, there is "Not a Flame On" from my response.
Sincerely, alomu.
Thank you for voicing your opinion.
I doubt that this thread will start any controversy. Experience and real on -the -job training is, IMO still something most employers look for.
When I hire, I look for the best candidate. Usually young grads with M. Arch. degrees end up doing Okay, but as you know it takes years. The degree has very little to do with how an employee is going to preform until they have some experience.
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brudgers
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 05:55 pm |
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stl-guy wrote:
Architecture schools which celebrate cotton candy and tennis bracelets don't deserve protection.
Well,
You know what they say about opinions.....
And you certainly have one.
You are entitled to yours.
I have mine too.
My beef is not with the schools, If anything it is more about the the legacy folks that graduated from the School of Hard Knocks.
Just because these people have not attended an NEEB program, they are completely left out while they are experienced and qualified.
Are you arguing for better access to the profession or against it?
As for hard knocks, emigrating is pretty tough...even if it's not your experience.
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InTheDark
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 07:30 pm |
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Two points:
1. I don't see how this makes things "easier" really for foreign architects to get licensed here - mostly it's just a matter of convenience and standardization. I mean, right now the system is that they get educated elsewhere and then have to do EESA, and if EESA says their education was equivalent then they get to proceed with testing & licensing, but if it says their education wasn't equivalent then they have to earn more credits or take CLEP tests or whatever until they're deemed to have equivalent education, right?
So this would just make it so that if they attend one of these schools that is in the accord then they'd know all along that they had a degree that is equivalent and they'd be safe from being short on credits.
2. This should make it easier for US architects to get work in other countries and keep more of their fees on those projects. I'm with a firm that does a lot of work in China for multinational companies and institutions. On those projects there usually has to be an architect-of-record type of situation with a firm in China, and we also have to partner with Chinese architects to do a lot of the CA work, so a lot of our fees on those projects go to the licensed architects there. If it was easier for US architects to work and get licensed in other countries, like the way it is now for US architects who do projects in Canada, then that would be better for keeping more of our fees in the US.Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 07:30 pm by InTheDark
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shinto909
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 07:59 pm |
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InTheDark wrote: Two points:
1. I don't see how this makes things "easier" really for foreign architects to get licensed here - mostly it's just a matter of convenience and standardization. I mean, right now the system is that they get educated elsewhere and then have to do EESA, and if EESA says their education was equivalent then they get to proceed with testing & licensing, but if it says their education wasn't equivalent then they have to earn more credits or take CLEP tests or whatever until they're deemed to have equivalent education, right?
So this would just make it so that if they attend one of these schools that is in the accord then they'd know all along that they had a degree that is equivalent and they'd be safe from being short on credits.
2. This should make it easier for US architects to get work in other countries and keep more of their fees on those projects. I'm with a firm that does a lot of work in China for multinational companies and institutions. On those projects there usually has to be an architect-of-record type of situation with a firm in China, and we also have to partner with Chinese architects to do a lot of the CA work, so a lot of our fees on those projects go to the licensed architects there. If it was easier for US architects to work and get licensed in other countries, like the way it is now for US architects who do projects in Canada, then that would be better for keeping more of our fees in the US.
for point 2 wouldnt the reverse also be true? we would have more projects done here by foreign companies with less US involvement. (read less work here)
my experience with foreign architecture companies is that many do not understand american construction or detailing.
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InTheDark
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 08:45 pm |
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| Yeah I think that was stl's point. But I'm just trying to point out that it will work both ways.
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