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CBidentity
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Posted: Tue Sep 30th, 2008 11:20 pm |
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Hi,
I am already a licenced architect and have been practicing a little over 12 years. I had at one point applied for the IDP but never actually went through with it for one reason or another, mostly because there never seem any employers who seemed interested in internship development. I had to learn everything I could job hoping or just through trial and error.
I wonder how important this IDP is and is it too late to try to go through the whole process.
Was I just unlucky in getting jerks for employers? how in the world did anyone go throught this whole process?
Last edited on Tue Sep 30th, 2008 11:21 pm by CBidentity
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FinitoCompleto
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Posted: Wed Oct 1st, 2008 12:32 am |
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If you've been practicing for 12 years you've probably acquired plenty of experience to satisfy IDP or at least come pretty close - though if you've been working on your own (not as an employee) it could complicate things as it's tougher to document that experience and get it accepted by NCARB. Many people who decide to satisfy IDP after they've been licensed and practicing for awhile find that they have plenty of experience to report all or most of their IDP units retroactively.
The employers really don't need to do too much other than give you enough and varied opportunities to accumulate all the required units in different areas, and sign the forms. If you can track down your former employers at this point you can have them sign off on all the units you earned while working for them.
"The whole process" for most people is just a matter of either having employers who involve them in all the different facets of the life of a project and the operation of the firm, or moving from job to job until they get that exposure. Most firms don't really have any sort of formal organized intern development program or track. So for most of us we just kept track of our units in all the various categories, and then filled out the forms and got current or former employers to sign them, and that was it for getting through the process.
If you have old timesheets from former jobs you can just curl up with them and with NCARB's free downloadable spreadsheets and fill them in. This will give you an idea as to whether you're still short in any categories.
As to why you would want to do IDP at this point: many states require it for reciprocity. If you think you will want to work on projects in other states then you should probably complete IDP.
Some states also require NCARB certification for reciprocity, which in turn requires IDP.
And why you should do it now: NCARB has announced plans to implement a policy that will prevent retroactively reporting experience that is more than 6 months old. Of course it will be up to individual state boards as to whether they want to adopt that policy - but you can be sure that some will and some won't, which will further complicate reporting, as well as applying for reciprocity.
You mentioned that you "applied for IDP" at one point. Do you mean that you started a council record with NCARB? If so you may find that to continue that record at this point will require paying the years of back dues that have lapsed (if you paid a fee to start your council record it was good for 3 years. After that your record lapsed. NCARB typically requires back years' dues and a reactivation fee to make the record active again.)
You might try starting a new record and hope that they don't find that you already have one...Last edited on Wed Oct 1st, 2008 12:47 am by FinitoCompleto
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gsaarinen
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Posted: Wed Oct 1st, 2008 02:03 am |
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| I would not go through an IDP process after being licensed for 12 years. Will it improve you move you to a new place? What outcome are you expecting?
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FinitoCompleto
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Posted: Wed Oct 1st, 2008 02:46 am |
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It isn't always an issue of moving to another place.
Remember that many of us are in the smaller states, where our work tends to spread into adjacent states. If you're in the center of a spatially large state - like Texas or C.olorado or California - then perhaps you're not going to find many occasions to cross state lines for projects, while if you're in southern New England you may have ongoing projects in 4 or 5 states. If you want to be able to work on your own without hiring an "architect of record" it will help if you're able to get licensed quickly anywhere in your likely radius of work.
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Matt_A
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 02:52 am |
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| If you are interested in obtaining another license in another state, I suggest you write a letter to their board, documenting your experience before and after you became licensed, and ask them if that isn't sufficient for reciprocity. The purpose of IDP is to prepare people to become licensed, you've already demonstrated that you are more than prepared. They may ask for references or an interview, but I would be dumbfounded if they told you to get IDP credits after holding a license for a dozen years. Please let us know what you decide to do.
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FinitoCompleto
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:18 am |
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Matt: some states do have exceptions on IDP for people with some years of experience.
But in about a third of states NCARB Certification is required for reciprocity - and certification requires IDP. Some states do make exceptions on a case by case basis, but most of these states that require certification are notoriously inflexible and it only takes reading through the archives here to see many experienced people who have gotten tangled up in this lacking-IDP issue.
It's often possible to document the IDP units completely retroactively - in fact about 40% of all candidates document all of their IDP units after they've completed all of them. But that's one of the reasons that NCARB has voted to eliminate retroactive reporting beyond 6 months - which is why it would be a good idea for the original poster to document his past experience as soon as possible.Last edited on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:20 am by FinitoCompleto
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Matt_A
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:21 am |
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| Didn't he say he was already certified?
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FinitoCompleto
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:25 am |
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No.
He is licensed in at least one state.
It's impossible to be NCARB certified without completing IDP.
Close to 20 states require NCARB certification to apply for reciprocity, with no other alternative method for application (though a few of these have been known to make exceptions.)
Last edited on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:29 am by FinitoCompleto
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Matt_A
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:29 am |
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| How far back do they want to go? Are you telling me that someone who's been licensed for thirty years would need to go get IDP in order to get their license in that state?
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FinitoCompleto
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:31 am |
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| In a state that requires certification for reciprocity without some means for exceptions, yes the architect would need to document IDP in order to get certified.
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Matt_A
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:33 am |
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| If you know of such a state, please let me know.
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FinitoCompleto
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:39 am |
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These states require an NCARB certificate to apply for reciprocity:
Alabama
Arkansas
Washington DC
Georgia
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Massachusetts
Maryland
Mississippi
North Dakota
New Mexico
Nevada
Ohio
South Carolina
In addition to those listed above, there are another several states that will only accept an uncertified NCARB record in certain specific situations, such as if the person got their first license before a certain date, or if the state where they are licensed has identical initial licensing requirements to those of the state where they are seeking reciprocity.
Some of those listed above have been known to make exceptions on a case by case basis - you can look at their board meeting minutes for examples - but in most of them the certificate is an absolute requirement.
I have personal experience with applying for reciprocity in Massachusetts - where the NCARB certificate is mandatory for reciprocity. There the reciprocity application process is currently handled directly through NCARB - if you try to apply through the state or ask questions of the state board they direct you to NCARB - so if you don't hold NCARB certification your application won't even be transmitted or considered by the state, and there just isn't any mechanism for an exception.
http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocaterminal&L=4&L0=Home&L1=Licensee&L2=Division+of+Professional+Licensure+Boards&L3=Board+of+Registration+of+Architects&sid=Eoca&b=terminalcontent&f=dpl_boards_ar_faq&csid=Eoca#6Last edited on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 08:36 pm by FinitoCompleto
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pgharchintern
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Posted: Mon Oct 13th, 2008 04:42 am |
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| PA also requires IDP
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Mon Oct 13th, 2008 11:51 pm |
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pgharchintern wrote:
PA also requires IDP
True, but only for those initially licensed in another state after 1992. You can get reciprocity in PA without IDP if you were first licensed somewhere else before 1992. Matt's interest seems to be with the case of a person who's been licensed in some other state for 30 years already.
PA doesn't require an NCARB certificate for reciprocity.Last edited on Tue Oct 14th, 2008 12:57 am by Spellcaster
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stl-guy
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Posted: Wed Oct 15th, 2008 02:57 am |
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CBidentity wrote: Hi,
I am already a licenced architect and have been practicing a little over 12 years. I had at one point applied for the IDP but never actually went through with it for one reason or another, mostly because there never seem any employers who seemed interested in internship development. I had to learn everything I could job hoping or just through trial and error.
I wonder how important this IDP is and is it too late to try to go through the whole process.
Was I just unlucky in getting jerks for employers? how in the world did anyone go throught this whole process?
First go to NCARB.Org and download the Intern Development Program Guidelines.
IDP is required for NCARP certification.
First You pay the registration fees and establish a council record. This is easy, Ncarb is more than willing to take your money.
Next go the NCARB website and obtain a few other forms. Fill out Form 123 or sometimes a similar form called 123 %. The IDP training Unit report.
You will also need to download employment verification forms and send them to present and past employers who you report in your employment history. They are to send in the forms in To NCARB for you. If any Firms are out of business, dead or otherwise, don't report them but you may need to explain any large gaps in your employment history to NCARB.
Have all reported employers sign the employment verification forms and the IDP units your claim from each firm. Since you only need 700 IDP units (about 3 years experience) your present employer may be willing to vouch for all of your IDP experience on the reporting form you sent to your present firm.
In that case don't report any IDP to prior employers on the employment verification forms, just ask the to verify your employment history claimed on the form you will send to them and ask the to sent it to NCARB.
Someone must also sign for your as a Mentor. This can be a Present Architect employer or another registered Architect.
There is also a form you will need to send to your university to request that your college transcript be sent directly to NCARB.
Once the Council Record is established you can track progress on-line. Certification can take 2-3 months but the process is not really that difficult.
All of these forms must be sent directly to NCARB by past and present Employers and directly by your architecture school/ university.
Last edited on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 03:07 am by stl-guy
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Matt_A
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Posted: Wed Oct 15th, 2008 05:25 pm |
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stl-guy wrote:
First go to NCARB.Org and download the Intern Development Program Guidelines.
<snip>
All of these forms must be sent directly to NCARB by past and present Employers and directly by your architecture school/ university.
that's a helpful illucidation of an idiotic process.
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stl-guy
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Posted: Thu Oct 16th, 2008 01:47 am |
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Matt_A wrote: stl-guy wrote:
First go to NCARB.Org and download the Intern Development Program Guidelines.
<snip>
All of these forms must be sent directly to NCARB by past and present Employers and directly by your architecture school/ university.
that's a helpful illucidation of an idiotic process.
Matt_A,
Did you mean Elucidation?
If so, yes I think it is too.
After several years, I finally did it and was forced to go though this entire process. I had over 5,000 units to report. All were accepted.
No matter how much experience you have, If you want NCARB Certification, IDP is now required as are filling out all the forms and paying the fees.
As I mentioned though it was really just a matter of filling out some forms, listing hours of work experience in Category A-F and having and employers sign and send in the forms.
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Matt_A
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Posted: Thu Oct 16th, 2008 02:57 am |
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Did you mean Elucidation?
probably so. At some point people need to learn to treat each other like adults. A person with 12 years as a licensed architect in jurisdiction A is proving exactly what to jurisdiction B by filling out those forms? The intent of the IDP forms is to assist people who are in their internship in obtaining the broad experience they need. To apply the requirements retroactively is ludicrous, and implies that NCARB thinks that passing the test is proof that a candidate will perform their role as an architect properly. It's not proof, at best it's a strong indicator.
While I was taking the test I realized that the test is not a test of your knowledge, it's a test to see if you understand the boundaries of your knowledge... that is, to see if you can tell when you don't know something, and recognize (if it's important to know) that you need help.
They've turned it into baby stuff, you can't bring a calclulator, nyah nyah.. I'd like to see one architect in the real world who has to do a project without a calculator, or without ever referring to a code or standard.
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stl-guy
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Posted: Thu Oct 16th, 2008 05:51 am |
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Matt_A wrote: Did you mean Elucidation?
probably so. At some point people need to learn to treat each other like adults. A person with 12 years as a licensed architect in jurisdiction A is proving exactly what to jurisdiction B by filling out those forms? The intent of the IDP forms is to assist people who are in their internship in obtaining the broad experience they need. To apply the requirements retroactively is ludicrous, and implies that NCARB thinks that passing the test is proof that a candidate will perform their role as an architect properly. It's not proof, at best it's a strong indicator.
While I was taking the test I realized that the test is not a test of your knowledge, it's a test to see if you understand the boundaries of your knowledge... that is, to see if you can tell when you don't know something, and recognize (if it's important to know) that you need help.
They've turned it into baby stuff, you can't bring a calclulator, nyah nyah.. I'd like to see one architect in the real world who has to do a project without a calculator, or without ever referring to a code or standard.
Most of us do not need to be licenced in multiple states. How many Dentists for example do you know that pull teeth in more than one state?
It is your choice to become NCARB Certified. Direct registration is still possible with some states. NCARB Certification does smooth the process in most cases.
I don't make the rules.
As I have mentioned I am attempting to work with NCARB to get some minor rules changed but is not an easy task. There are strong forces at work that make the rules. Getting them changed in any way to reverse process is much more difficult.
Most states have adopted IDP and I don't see this changing.
Last edited on Thu Oct 16th, 2008 05:54 am by stl-guy
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Matt_A
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Posted: Thu Oct 16th, 2008 05:55 am |
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| yeah, I know. I don't think you made the rules up... You seem like you'd make more intelligent rules than the ones you describe.
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brudgers
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Posted: Thu Oct 16th, 2008 03:18 pm |
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Matt_A wrote: Did you mean Elucidation?
probably so. At some point people need to learn to treat each other like adults. A person with 12 years as a licensed architect in jurisdiction A is proving exactly what to jurisdiction B by filling out those forms?
They are proving that they meet the licensure requirements of jurisdiction B. Each state (thankfully) has its own licensure requirements. The intent of the IDP forms is to assist people who are in their internship in obtaining the broad experience they need. The purpose of IDP forms is to provide a standard means of documenting and reporting experience. It has nothing to do with the content of that experience. To apply the requirements retroactively is ludicrous, NCARB has nothing to do with setting the requirements. The states set the requirements. In my opinion, architects benefit greatly from the fact that there's a central repository of information and a universally accepted means of transmitting credentials to the states. and implies that NCARB thinks that passing the test is proof that a candidate will perform their role as an architect properly. It's not proof, at best it's a strong indicator.
While I was taking the test I realized that the test is not a test of your knowledge, it's a test to see if you understand the boundaries of your knowledge... that is, to see if you can tell when you don't know something, and recognize (if it's important to know) that you need help.
They've turned it into baby stuff, you can't bring a calclulator, nyah nyah.. I'd like to see one architect in the real world who has to do a project without a calculator, or without ever referring to a code or standard.
I suspect the banning of calculators is purely driven by operational issues.
The most common standardized tests do not allow calculators, primarily because of cheating.
ARE candidates frequently report encountering various interpretations of the rules...or ignorance of them.
So some candidates are able to use a Planmaster, while others aren't allowed to bring a conforming scientific calculator into the room.
Adding the calculator to the software standardizes the testing conditions and reduces confusion among test center staff.
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Thu Oct 16th, 2008 03:50 pm |
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Yes, NCARB has stated that they returned to the on-screen calculator because of these test center variations in enforcing the rules.
Also in the 2005 issue of Direct Connections that focused on cheating they discussed incidents of candidates smuggling in crib sheets inside calculators and other personal items, and that this was also driving the decision to return to on-screen calculators. (You're always going to have those people who get caught doing something idiotic and cause the rules to get tightened on everyone else. I think if NCARB could really have things their way they'd make everybody test in NCARB-issued pocketless jumpsuits, like casinos make their employees wear!)
The attachment below has been posted on the forum before as an example of the lengths to which some will go to cheat. Some also makes me happy I didn't have to test in a big hotel conference room. Some of these incidents were submitted by NCARB.
I agree with stl that it's a choice to get registered in another state, and a lot of this outrage is irrelevant for many people who practice happily in one state forever.
But I don't really buy the dentist analogy. Most dentists don't need to move from state to state - the teeth come to them. But the average architect in a small (in area) state will often work on projects in several states.
It would be nice if some of these states - especially in the northeast where this border-crossing is an everyday fact of life for most architects - would get together and standardize their rules, or agree to collectively recognize an architect licensed in one state as eligible to practice throughout the region.
If anything NCARB's policies are an effort toward that type of borderless standardization. But I don't see all the states getting into agreement about uniformly adopting those policies without amendment anytime soon.
If you don't like or can't meet the second state's reciprocity laws then do take that up with the state board. Some of them actually will display quite a bit of reasonable flexibility in dealing with situations like your hypothetical 30-years' experience guy, even where the written rules appear inflexible. On the other hand some states are very inflexible. You might search through Kato's older posts to see just how inflexible some can be - I think she lives in MA, but has been unable to get registered there despite getting registered in a neighboring state.
Attachment: BizarreTestingIncidents-3.pdf (Downloaded 19 times) Last edited on Thu Oct 16th, 2008 04:29 pm by Spellcaster
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stl-guy
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Posted: Fri Oct 17th, 2008 05:34 am |
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Matt_A wrote: yeah, I know. I don't think you made the rules up... You seem like you'd make more intelligent rules than the ones you describe.
Matt_A
I don't make any of the rules for architects. I am somewhat active with NCARB and with AIA and I do speak out at times without being an activist. In my opinion it is always best to try to work within the system.
If I had my way, there would be some changes but honestly I'm not a lobbyist, lawyer or politician. That is mainly the only way the rules get changed and it is a full time effort.
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Matt_A
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Posted: Sun Oct 19th, 2008 04:49 am |
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stl-guy --
there is a lot of wisdom in what you say.
I've been licensed since something like 1985. I have an NCARB certificate and licenses in seven jurisdictions. I finished my internship over twenty years ago.
I got interested in what internship looks like today and started to do some research. It seems to me that the system is not really working very well. I think it's needlessly bureaucratic, authoritarian, rigid, and frankly, skewed against the intern. It seems designed more to prevent success than to enable it. It's soft where it should be tough, and rock-hard where it should be helpful.
I think reasonable people who care about architecture -- as a pursuit and as a profession -- ought to take a time out from the hustle of practice every now and then and examine the system, and try to improve it where they find reason to do so, and where it is possible.
I have run into a stone wall at NCARB. I believe my report will be posted on archinect.com in the near future, perhaps that will generate interest in examining the situation.
With regard to IDP late in someone's career, I would personally find it very entertaining to be able to witness a bureaucrat explaining to an architect who has been practicing as a licensed practitioner for a dozen years that they need to justify so-and-so many hours doing such-and-such. It's laughable, if it weren't so pathetic. And I don't think it's out of line to say so. If a state has special hurricane or seismic requirements, I understand the need to press them on an applicant. But other than that, I think it is a perfect example of a situation where the person in the 'authority' role has no business being there.
I'm sure there are more gracious ways that I could express my opinions, but there comes a time when it can be helpful to name things for what they are. If that means crushing the bureaucrats tender feelings, I'm okay taking the responsibility for that. Architecture matters too much.Last edited on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 05:28 am by Matt_A
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Coach
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Posted: Sun Oct 19th, 2008 05:12 am |
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Well Matt, now you're talking.
The system is somewhat broken. IDP is a farce and the entire notion of formalizing the process is, to say the least, seriously flawed.
It is completely artificial and I can't help but think that it was created solely as a method to sustain NCARB -- both in purpose and financial support.
What was so wrong with the way things were? Honestly, I see no evidence that candidates are better prepared today than in the past. In fact, I am amazed at the lack of experience I see here. Unfortunately, I have no way to gauge. We didn't have a forum like this before, only anecdotal evidence.
I also only know my experience. I was lucky enough to go to a damned good school. What I can't say for certain is if it's the same today. I also worked in very small firms and the breadth of my experience was wide.
NCARB is only the problem insofar as the state boards give htem authority and follow their recommendations. Sadly, they are moving closer to lock step. Change must come from the member boards.
More importantly, someone should take a look at NAAB and how the schools are achieving accreditation.
Most important is the attitude of employing architects. All firms must adopt an attitude towards interns as though the firm relied on their growth. This is crucial in small firms.
All firms must start thinking and acting like small firms when it comes to employee development. It must be organic, not a matter of filling out forms.
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Matt_A
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Posted: Sun Oct 19th, 2008 05:17 am |
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| thanks Coach. If you read the RFI I gave to the IDP Advisory Committee, you'd see that I'm pretty much saying the same thing. They met in San Diego a couple weeks ago, and they were given the RFI. I have not heard a peep from them since, nor from the staff. I'm curious about what will happen, but I do think it would be helpful if other people who think the issues need examining were to fill their inbox with similar requests. I don't have the answers, but I do have plenty of questions.
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brudgers
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Posted: Sun Oct 19th, 2008 06:19 pm |
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