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pgharchintern
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Posted: Wed Nov 12th, 2008 06:22 pm |
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Well as the clock hands turn I have put the finishing touches on my IDP and have sent my hopefully last Employment Verification Form in. This has been a long haul.
I often wonder if people like Filippo Brunelleschi (1377 – April 15, 1446 would have continued in architecture if he would have had to go thru IDP. It's interesting that without a 5 year college degree, he is known as one of the most influential architects of the Itialian Renaissance. How many potentially good and maybe great architects have left the field because of the way IDP is handled.
It seems confusing that so many aspiring architects post so much discord in their quest for eligibility to sit for a test. Has IDP made me better? Not really. The true measure of my ability to act as an architect will come after years of Doing architecture for clients. To pass a test has been argued is one's ability to "test well" and less to do with content knowledge. Say the word "TEST" to many people instills fear and causes them to do poorly when they might not otherwise do so. Hopefully I will be smiled upon by those deities of architecture and pass my tests.
Wish me luch, I'll need it.
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BetterMousetrap
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Posted: Wed Nov 12th, 2008 07:26 pm |
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often wonder if people like Filippo Brunelleschi (1377 – April 15, 1446 would have continued in architecture if he would have had to go thru IDP.
After a mathematical education, Brunelleschi did a 6-year aprenticeship beginning at age 15 (unpaid, receiving only room and board) in the Arte della Seta, which was the guild that regulated metalworkers. He became eligible to take a series of exams at age 21. He passed these and this allowed him to practice as a goldsmith at age 21. It was this skill as a metalworker that took him on a path from designing architectural elements (doors, statuary, cupolas, domes) gradually to larger architectural works.
There was no architect's guild. Most of the other well-known "architects/engineers" of the renaissance also entered the field via this 6-year metalsmithing apprenticeship route, though a few were studio apprentices to artists, and others were builder apprentices - but the metalsmithing route was seen as a more desirable career choice than the builder route for a boy of a wealthier/more educated class, which probably explains in part why this was more typically the route that the now-famous architects took (these people were from a class more likely to have the connections to the clients of the day!).
In all of those situations the apprenticeships - which were a form of indentured servitude - were 6-year contracts with associated exams. This was the typical post-secondary path for young men.
The guilds decided the numbers of apprentices that would be allowed in each guild, and to which master craftsman each would be apprenticed and how many apprentices a master could have. The apprentice was bound by a legal contract - he could only leave that position before his 6-year contract was up if he was bought out of it by a family member, or occasionally by another master craftsman. (At least the IDP intern may choose to leave a bad situation!)
Local law enforcement had the power to force a boy into any available apprenticeship of the official's choosing if the boy's parents didn't arrange one for him or could not pay for one. The family's finances might determine the son's choices, since some guilds demanded high payoffs from boys' families for the privilege of apprenticing in the guild.
If the apprentice failed his exams he was sometimes permitted to remain as an apprentice for an extended period and try again, though failure could also cause the master craftsman to dismiss the apprentice, to a very uncertain future as he was not considered employable in a skilled craft. (At least with IDP and the ARE you get to keep trying if you so choose!) Because there was much fear of trade secrets being spilled, apprentices were typically kept busy with the most menial of tasks for their first year or two, in order to assure that they would last and were trustworthy before they were allowed to begin any hands-on training in their craft - and in some cases before they were even allowed access to a workshop and observation of the journeymen and masters at work.
In all but the smallest villages the craftsmens guilds regulated entry into the professions, and handicraft-related workers were forbidden by law to operate businesses without being members of the guild and successfully navigating the years of apprenticeship, exams, and journeyman status, all before being allowed to run a business.
So in many ways the professional or skilled craftsman entrepreneur of today is much less regulated.
There are many problems with IDP and it is a seriously flawed system. But particularly in the case of someone who is coming into the profession from an "alternative" background, as apparently you are without the NAAB degree, how would you propose to assure the candidate's suitability for licensing if not through some combination of training and exams? Architects have many responsibilities that potentially affect health and life safety. Shouldn't there be some system for assuring that candidates have suitable training and/or education?
You seem to be unhappy with the IDP regulations, don't think that a degree is necessary, and also feel that the test is not necessarily a good measure since some people have test-phobia or just don't test well.
What's your proposed alternative to the current training/education/testing triumverate?Last edited on Wed Nov 12th, 2008 09:18 pm by BetterMousetrap
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pgharchintern
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Posted: Thu Nov 13th, 2008 03:50 am |
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BetterMousetrap wrote: often wonder if people like Filippo Brunelleschi (1377 – April 15, 1446 would have continued in architecture if he would have had to go thru IDP.
After a mathematical education, Brunelleschi did a 6-year aprenticeship beginning at age 15 (unpaid, receiving only room and board) in the Arte della Seta, which was the guild that regulated metalworkers. He became eligible to take a series of exams at age 21. He passed these and this allowed him to practice as a goldsmith at age 21. It was this skill as a metalworker that took him on a path from designing architectural elements (doors, statuary, cupolas, domes) gradually to larger architectural works.
There was no architect's guild. Most of the other well-known "architects/engineers" of the renaissance also entered the field via this 6-year metalsmithing apprenticeship route, though a few were studio apprentices to artists, and others were builder apprentices - but the metalsmithing route was seen as a more desirable career choice than the builder route for a boy of a wealthier/more educated class, which probably explains in part why this was more typically the route that the now-famous architects took (these people were from a class more likely to have the connections to the clients of the day!).
In all of those situations the apprenticeships - which were a form of indentured servitude - were 6-year contracts with associated exams. This was the typical post-secondary path for young men.
The guilds decided the numbers of apprentices that would be allowed in each guild, and to which master craftsman each would be apprenticed and how many apprentices a master could have. The apprentice was bound by a legal contract - he could only leave that position before his 6-year contract was up if he was bought out of it by a family member, or occasionally by another master craftsman. (At least the IDP intern may choose to leave a bad situation!)
Local law enforcement had the power to force a boy into any available apprenticeship of the official's choosing if the boy's parents didn't arrange one for him or could not pay for one. The family's finances might determine the son's choices, since some guilds demanded high payoffs from boys' families for the privilege of apprenticing in the guild.
If the apprentice failed his exams he was sometimes permitted to remain as an apprentice for an extended period and try again, though failure could also cause the master craftsman to dismiss the apprentice, to a very uncertain future as he was not considered employable in a skilled craft. (At least with IDP and the ARE you get to keep trying if you so choose!) Because there was much fear of trade secrets being spilled, apprentices were typically kept busy with the most menial of tasks for their first year or two, in order to assure that they would last and were trustworthy before they were allowed to begin any hands-on training in their craft - and in some cases before they were even allowed access to a workshop and observation of the journeymen and masters at work.
In all but the smallest villages the craftsmens guilds regulated entry into the professions, and handicraft-related workers were forbidden by law to operate businesses without being members of the guild and successfully navigating the years of apprenticeship, exams, and journeyman status, all before being allowed to run a business.
So in many ways the professional or skilled craftsman entrepreneur of today is much less regulated.
There are many problems with IDP and it is a seriously flawed system. But particularly in the case of someone who is coming into the profession from an "alternative" background, as apparently you are without the NAAB degree, how would you propose to assure the candidate's suitability for licensing if not through some combination of training and exams? Architects have many responsibilities that potentially affect health and life safety. Shouldn't there be some system for assuring that candidates have suitable training and/or education?
You seem to be unhappy with the IDP regulations, don't think that a degree is necessary, and also feel that the test is not necessarily a good measure since some people have test-phobia or just don't test well.
What's your proposed alternative to the current training/education/testing triumverate?
"You seem to be unhappy with the IDP regulations"
I'm afraid you assume too much. I'm not unhappy with IDP regulations, quite the contrary. I believe that IDP is a fantastic process if, it isn't abused by licensed architects who think that anyone In IDP is merely a means to an end. Production is not soley the function that anyone in IDP should be doing. There are potentials that many LA's overlook for production. They have no real interest in providing opportunities for IDP participants to get thru IDP. I believe in regulation, standards AND production but not at the cost of all else.
"don't think that a degree is necessary"
A degree is not the only way to learn about architecture. Especially not a 5 or 7 year degree. For teaching purposes sure, if someone intends to go into a college setting to be a professor of architecture then go ahead and get a phd. But clients don't say, show me your degrees, who were your professors, what school you went to and what number you were in the graduating class. They ask what your fee will be and when you can get them the drawings for their project so that they can get permits to break ground. They call up and ask you to change the carpet to VTC, or put brick where you chose stone. They tell you that they want the stairs there and not there and if it doesn't conflict with code, you do it. I believe that architecture is best learned by doing architecture. And by that I mean in a firm on real world projects where problems and solutions really affect the health, safety and welfare of the public.
"and also feel that the test is not necessarily a good measure since some people have test-phobia or just don't test well"
Eliminate all the market test practice material, Kaplan, Dorfs, etc and watch what happens to the PASS/FAIL rate. Passing some test to say that one is finally able to practice architecture is narrow minded and short sighted. 5 years of school, 3 years of IDP and you are eligible to sit for the ARE? Please. How about 3 years of education and 5 years of tracked experiences by a third party organization that holds firms and candidates accountable. You go to work for 35 hours a week and then go to a 5 hour "class" that reviews your activities at your firm. You are "visited" by a "Facilitator" who meets with your immediate supervisor and the firm's principal to coordinate your progression and evaluates the quality and quantity of your activities. Make architectural education "real". Make firms accountable for NCARB recognition. Make architects accountable for missing licensure Continuing Education Units and "forgetting" to file their license renewal.
Oh but hey, thanks for the history lesson, it will help me greatly the next time a client asks me how Filippo's solution to something that happened in 1440 will get him to get me to get his drawings done faster so he can go get a permit so he can get his addition done before Christmas.
Next time, don't waste your time on the history lesson. I don't care. If I asked for one that would have been different.
A simpe congratulations for completing IDP would have sufficed.
Sharing your experiences of IDP would have been more interesting and more applicable.
Telling me, et al, how you and your firm provides generous opportunities to Intern IDP participants in an effort to better the profession would be of more interest and posting an opening in your firm would really be an incentive to study hard in order to pass the ARE.
Before you get your nickers in a twist and bash me, think of how to help me be a better architect.
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Phlustered
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Posted: Thu Nov 13th, 2008 04:50 am |
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I for one thought the "history lesson" was pretty interesting and put things in perspective a bit.
But I will also congratulate you, preliminarily, on completing IDP. I say preliminarily because too many of us have had the experience of sending in what we believe to be our last IDP form, waiting two to four months, and receiving a letter that we're short by some number of units, or something's been disqualified, or clarification is needed, or further documentation is needed, or there's something wrong with our supervisor's credentials, or our hours per week were too few or too many. Which sets in motion another sending of forms and another few months wait, and so on and so forth.
With any luck you'll be one of the happy ones who makes it through on the first try unscathed!
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pgharchintern
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Posted: Thu Nov 13th, 2008 04:47 pm |
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I agree that the narrative on Fil was extensive and well documented. However that wasn't the point of the discussion. I was being a bit sarcastic in my flippant comments.
The author of the "history" lesson only decided to point out my lack of an NAAB degree, his/her apparent assumption that I don't like IDP, and that I think tests are stupid. Instead of going for the negative, I would have appreciated some personal history of his/her struggles to get thru IDP and what was done to overcome those obsticles as you point out ( appariantly the aforementioned author agrees that the "process" of IDP sucks not the "intent"). I do believe that there is a falling off of linear progression from a college setting to being thrown into a firm mentality. When one progresses from a 3 month internship in an office, knowing that if they don't like the principal or the office decore or other people, they will only have to put up with such conditions for only 3 months and then it's back to the safety of school. But when hired into those deplorable conditions for 12 months, 50 weeks, 250 days and upwards of 2000 hours to as many as 3000 hours, then the fecal matter hits the occilating rotator and where can I hide when that happens. And throw in to those deplorable situation that you, the intern, is locked into a drafters position in the attic of some remodeled Victorian or the basement of same without a window to look out of and you are thinking to yourself, "I spent $100,000 for this?!" And your parents are thinking, "We tried to say go into law or medicine but NOOOOO!" "You, the intern, wanted to be "creative", ya, uh huh, "ARE THOSE SECTIONS DONE YET CRATCHET?!""
Anyway, THANKS for your Positive comments and encouragement, every little bit helps.
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Phlustered
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Posted: Thu Nov 13th, 2008 05:19 pm |
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I do believe that there is a falling off of linear progression from a college setting to being thrown into a firm mentality. When one progresses from a 3 month internship in an office, knowing that if they don't like the principal or the office decore or other people, they will only have to put up with such conditions for only 3 months and then it's back to the safety of school. But when hired into those deplorable conditions for 12 months, 50 weeks, 250 days and upwards of 2000 hours to as many as 3000 hours, then the fecal matter hits the occilating rotator and where can I hide when that happens. And throw in to those deplorable situation that you, the intern, is locked into a drafters position in the attic of some remodeled Victorian or the basement of same without a window to look out of and you are thinking to yourself, "I spent $100,000 for this?!" And your parents are thinking, "We tried to say go into law or medicine but NOOOOO!" "You, the intern, wanted to be "creative", ya, uh huh, "ARE THOSE SECTIONS DONE YET CRATCHET?!""
Hmm... if these represent your experiences then it seems you've had a tough go of IDP. It's a little surprising since I take it you're working in the Pittsburgh area which is where I also spent many of my intern days, and I found things to be pretty easy sailing there in terms of finding good jobs with decent opportunities for interns. Firms were pretty eager to get interns, my bosses were always willing to discuss my IDP requirements, and usually helped to get me involved in the tasks I needed when possible though it was not always possible to get every type of required units in every firm, just due to the nature of the work that some of the firms did. Firms there tended to be a little old fashioned in the formality and hierarchies of the office cultures, but none that I worked in had the scrooge-like environment you're describing. I had design opportunity starting on my first day of my first job after graduation. There was always a lot of grunt work to get done too, but I didn't work really crazy hours and some of the firms were so eager to hire that they paid overtime even to professional-exempt people so when I did work crazy hours I got paid well.
I don't know a lot of firms in that area that have interns and drafters working in basements and windowless garrets. In Pittsburgh the firms I interned in ranged in size, but all were sunny downtown locations and comfortable offices (WTW, BCJ, R3A...)
Where on earth did you work?
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pgharchintern
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Posted: Thu Nov 13th, 2008 06:22 pm |
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Out of professional respect, I'd never say where I worked. I was in a different mode than you. As a "draftsman" I was only deemed to be a grunt, even though after 13 years I was doing things that graduates were not able to do. Over the last 8 years I have had a variety of jobs with architects who were lucky to find their car keys yet felt that I was not able to do the work. It's true I never learned to read minds, something they assumed I should do. Considering I was making a whopping $19 an hour, I should have been able to run 2 cad stations and do 3 projects at the same time.
When I found out that I could go thru IDP and eventually become licensed in PA, my mistake was that I told the principals that I was interviewing with my goals. No one likes to think that someone without a 7 year degree and paying off student loans to the tune of $100,000 could or should get paid more than $20/hr. Hopefully I can change my situation.
Last edited on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 06:22 pm by pgharchintern
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Phlustered
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Posted: Thu Nov 13th, 2008 06:49 pm |
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I understand about not wanting to name firms. I was just curious as your depiction of these windowless sweatshops surprised me. I never encountered any of those types of firms in that region and was just curious as to who/where those are!
It's a little surprising that you had so much trouble with discussing your licensing issues as someone without a degree. Some of my bosses in those big firms were also folks without architecture degrees. PA had a long history of allowing that and a lot of the principals in some of those larger firms came up through the experience route. Lots of my coworkers also had no degree and I didn't see discrimination or a class system.
Please understand I'm not arguing with you or challenging the veracity of your own experiences - just curious as I worked in the same region in the same time period and had very different experiences and impressions.
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pgharchintern
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Posted: Thu Nov 13th, 2008 07:02 pm |
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| If you're now an architect in the Pittsburgh region, we should get together.
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Phlustered
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Posted: Thu Nov 13th, 2008 07:40 pm |
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I moved out of state about four years ago.
I have a sneaking suspicion we may have worked together very briefly in a large firm some years ago, that's another reason I asked about which firms you'd been with, but then again it could have been somebody with a similar background.
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One Fella
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Posted: Sat Dec 6th, 2008 10:34 pm |
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pgharchintern wrote:
"You seem to be unhappy with the IDP regulations"
I'm afraid you assume too much. I'm not unhappy with IDP regulations, quite the contrary. I believe that IDP is a fantastic process if, it isn't abused by licensed architects who think that anyone In IDP is merely a means to an end. Production is not soley the function that anyone in IDP should be doing. There are potentials that many LA's overlook for production. They have no real interest in providing opportunities for IDP participants to get thru IDP. I believe in regulation, standards AND production but not at the cost of all else.
"don't think that a degree is necessary"
A degree is not the only way to learn about architecture. Especially not a 5 or 7 year degree. For teaching purposes sure, if someone intends to go into a college setting to be a professor of architecture then go ahead and get a phd. But clients don't say, show me your degrees, who were your professors, what school you went to and what number you were in the graduating class. They ask what your fee will be and when you can get them the drawings for their project so that they can get permits to break ground. They call up and ask you to change the carpet to VTC, or put brick where you chose stone. They tell you that they want the stairs there and not there and if it doesn't conflict with code, you do it. I believe that architecture is best learned by doing architecture. And by that I mean in a firm on real world projects where problems and solutions really affect the health, safety and welfare of the public.
"and also feel that the test is not necessarily a good measure since some people have test-phobia or just don't test well"
Eliminate all the market test practice material, Kaplan, Dorfs, etc and watch what happens to the PASS/FAIL rate. Passing some test to say that one is finally able to practice architecture is narrow minded and short sighted. 5 years of school, 3 years of IDP and you are eligible to sit for the ARE? Please. How about 3 years of education and 5 years of tracked experiences by a third party organization that holds firms and candidates accountable. You go to work for 35 hours a week and then go to a 5 hour "class" that reviews your activities at your firm. You are "visited" by a "Facilitator" who meets with your immediate supervisor and the firm's principal to coordinate your progression and evaluates the quality and quantity of your activities. Make architectural education "real". Make firms accountable for NCARB recognition. Make architects accountable for missing licensure Continuing Education Units and "forgetting" to file their license renewal.
Oh but hey, thanks for the history lesson, it will help me greatly the next time a client asks me how Filippo's solution to something that happened in 1440 will get him to get me to get his drawings done faster so he can go get a permit so he can get his addition done before Christmas.
Next time, don't waste your time on the history lesson. I don't care. If I asked for one that would have been different.
A simpe congratulations for completing IDP would have sufficed.
Sharing your experiences of IDP would have been more interesting and more applicable.
Telling me, et al, how you and your firm provides generous opportunities to Intern IDP participants in an effort to better the profession would be of more interest and posting an opening in your firm would really be an incentive to study hard in order to pass the ARE.
Before you get your nickers in a twist and bash me, think of how to help me be a better architect.
NICE rebuttal pgharchintern! My "intern" experience was fairly similar to what you describe. As far as Bettermousetrap's synopsis of brunelleschi's professional context surrounding him in his day and age, the semantics have changed but its all the same poop just a different color.
For example being an intern nowadays aka Cad monkey is for all intents and purposes indentured servitude. Get real and be honest professional people. I suppose we might do as they 99 times out of a hundred did in school and focus on the exception BUT the general truth is that the profession's expectations of interns is that they'll be used to input the solutions that the older generation has already solved for them.
The academic environment deceives well meaning and impressionable young people into giving them the idea that they will pay their dues for a few short years (AIA: "IDP take 3 years" and AIA: "the Architects Registration EXAM" [as if there aren't 9]) and then they'll be given access to real problems.
The fact is that interns and "emerging professionals" are used and abused by the contemporary profession in much the same way as they were exploited in Brunelleschi's time.
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pgharchintern
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Posted: Sun Dec 7th, 2008 12:40 am |
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Thanks One Fella, I thought my rebuttal was well versed.
After nearly 2 months of reading and posting on this forum I have learned many philosophies. The common thread seems to be that while there is great triumph there is a lot of sadness and frustration that is needless and undeserving that goes along with this profession. The small minority of firms who perpetuate the frustrations puts the profession in the same category with prostitution. And, the professional organizations keep lockstep with those few. It's no wonder that so many feel that the profession is over rated & over paid.
"The word "architect" comes from Latin architectus, which in turn derives from Greek arkhitekton (arkhi, chief + tekton, builder")[1]. In its broadest sense, an architect is a person who translates a user's requirements into a built environment."
When architects start taking responsibility as "Chief Builder" instead of letting contractors and building professionals dictate what and how something should be done on jobsites the profession will gain respect in the eyes of the public.
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momosgarage
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Posted: Tue Dec 9th, 2008 07:25 pm |
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You seem to be unhappy with the IDP regulations, don't think that a degree is necessary, and also feel that the test is not necessarily a good measure since some people have test-phobia or just don't test well.
What's your proposed alternative to the current training/education/testing triumverate?
Why would an architecture degree be necessary? I think folks with Urban planning, construction management and engineering degrees are pretty well prepared to become architects as long as they engage in some form of rigorously documented continuing edcuation. Especially if they have years of experience in their fields overlaping skills used in architecture. Even people with no degree and many years of of experience as licensed contractors or developers have the basic stuff needed to pursue being an architect. Learning on the job is 70%-80% of the process of becoming a proficient professional. Sometime you use a little of what you learned in school, but most of the time you don't use any of it (the mere fact that many interns with expensive degree's are just drafters says a lot, no entry level civil engineer does just drafting for 2-6 years before licensure)
IDP by itself is silly. In California a Civil engineer needs to just prove relevance work experience on a 1-3 page form accompanied by a signature of another licensed civil engineer (same with landscape architects). These lines of work are just as important as architecture and in the case of a civil engineer working as a structural engineer, the life safety issue is far more pronounced than the architects role. So, why all the hoops for architects?
However, I do agree than everyone needs to take the state issued exams. All industries have this requirement. But it should be based on documented work experience with a signature at the end of the defined 2-6 year period, no IDP hoopla.
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