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Coach
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:21 pm |
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King wrote: IMO, you do not change from drafter to PM overnight with getting your license. That's seriously messed up.
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King
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:25 pm |
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Coach wrote: King wrote: IMO, you do not change from drafter to PM overnight with getting your license. That's seriously messed up.
Why?
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combinat
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:34 pm |
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There are usually MORE positions between a Draftsman and Project Manager than ZERO. Eg.:
President
Vice President (stamp & share profit and responsibilities)
Principal (= Project Manager)
Associate
Designer
Senior Staff (= Sr Draftsman)
Staff (= Draftsman)
Student
Are you OK with being a Licensed Architrect paid and billed as a DRAFTSMAN? Come on.
Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:36 pm by combinat
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Coach
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:35 pm |
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King wrote: Coach wrote: King wrote: IMO, you do not change from drafter to PM overnight with getting your license. That's seriously messed up.
Why? The idea that someone who is licensed or close to it is thought of as a drafter.
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King
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:45 pm |
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combinat wrote: Are you OK with being a Licensed Architrect paid and billed as a DRAFTSMAN? Come on.
No, I am not, but how is your firm going to adjust the fee to the Clients?
For my small office (4 people) , each project has 1 principal, 1 PM & 1 team member(OK not drafter).
Let's say you are PM:When you get licensed in the middle of a project, you are still a PM (PM is not req'd to have a license), right?
Can your office send the Client a new bill asking him to pay more? I don't think so.
Let's say you are team member, and you get your license. I bet my boss would put my name under PM (rather I am doing PM job or not, that's a different story), and put the original PM (who is unlicensed but has a Master degree) as team member.
Above is how I understand ARCH firms bill our client (at least in my office).
Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:49 pm by King
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combinat
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:53 pm |
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"I bet my boss would put my name under PM (rather I am doing PM job or not, that's a different story), and put the original PM (who is unlicensed but has a Master degree) as team member."
This means that you are making more money for the firm, because they are billing your time at a higher rate. ....so why dont't you make them give you an appropriate share of it! Say, raise by the same % to YOUR salary as YOUR cost to the client becomes.
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King
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 06:08 pm |
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combinat wrote: "I bet my boss would put my name under PM (rather I am doing PM job or not, that's a different story), and put the original PM (who is unlicensed but has a Master degree) as team member."
This means that you are making more money for the firm, because they are billing your time at a higher rate. ....so why dont't you make them give you an appropriate share of it! Say, raise by the same % to YOUR salary as YOUR cost to the client becomes.
So does this mean the orginal PM is making less money for the firm, so he should get a pay cut?
NO!
Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 06:09 pm by King
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alldone
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 06:34 pm |
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As long as you are happy with 4% raise, that is all matters. Every firm has different hierarchy and billing category. Not every firm has only 3 billing rates. I know some firm has 20 category, directly multiplied to employee's salary.
People here are trying to help you with your question. If you can accept 4% raise and stay happy, then it is good for you.
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King
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 06:42 pm |
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| Sorry, if I sound stupid...Thanks for all your helps...
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combinat
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 06:50 pm |
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| Cool! CONGRATULATIONS on passing the exams! Good Luck!
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brudgers
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 07:04 pm |
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King wrote: combinat wrote: Are you OK with being a Licensed Architrect paid and billed as a DRAFTSMAN? Come on.
No, I am not, but how is your firm going to adjust the fee to the Clients?
For my small office (4 people) , each project has 1 principal, 1 PM & 1 team member(OK not drafter).
Let's say you are PM:When you get licensed in the middle of a project, you are still a PM (PM is not req'd to have a license), right?
Can your office send the Client a new bill asking him to pay more? I don't think so.
Let's say you are team member, and you get your license. I bet my boss would put my name under PM (rather I am doing PM job or not, that's a different story), and put the original PM (who is unlicensed but has a Master degree) as team member.
Above is how I understand ARCH firms bill our client (at least in my office).
Four people with three layers of titles is kinda silly, in my opinion.
Then again, I don't do a lot of hourly billing.
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King
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Posted: Tue Aug 26th, 2008 04:26 am |
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brudgers wrote: Four people with three layers of titles is kinda silly, in my opinion. It is silly only if you know we have 4 people. LOL. IMO 3 rates are the minimum.
For my own sake, don't other small Arch. firms bill their client using min. 3 tier rates?
If not, how many tiers do they have? 2 tiers?
With 1 PM + 1 staff:
Where is the principal? Who's the senior person u can talk to regarding complicated issues?
With 1 Principal + 1 PM, who's doing the work?
With 1 Principal + 1 staff, who's managing the job?
Last edited on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 08:07 pm by King
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dottie
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Posted: Tue Aug 26th, 2008 04:38 pm |
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Hi King,
I do work for a little larger firm with 28 people all together, however, I am in a branch office with 4 people and the receptionist.
Officially, we have one principle, 2 project managers (both of us working on licensing) and one draftsman. We all pitch in on the production work and all.
I know that when we do billing and proposals at this point, my name is put in as a Project Manager, under the main principle. The only title change when I get licensed is to call me a Project Architect, and yes, my billing rate will probably be changed, but not in the middle of a project, of course. My boss did say, that when I get licensed, we will sit down and negotiate. So, we will see, I will be happy with anything. I love my job and my location. Also, this boss is the first one I ever worked for that didn't want me just to be a CAD monkey and shut up and sit down. He allows me to have an opinion and thoughts and wants to hear them. As he says, he hates preprogrammed stupid robots who can't think on their feet! So, along with that cames much more responsibility. I love it!
I just got a very generous raise and a bonus. So, I will not gripe about anything.
I really think, that if you are in this for the money, you always knew from school, it ain't there! LOL! Find the right chemistry in the office you want to work, have a true passion in your profession and the money will come, evenually, not overnight.
Good Luck!
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King
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Posted: Tue Aug 26th, 2008 04:51 pm |
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dottie wrote: Hi King,
I do work for a little larger firm with 28 people all together, however, I am in a branch office with 4 people and the receptionist.
Officially, we have one principle, 2 project managers (both of us working on licensing) and one draftsman. We all pitch in on the production work and all.
I know that when we do billing and proposals at this point, my name is put in as a Project Manager, under the main principle. The only title change when I get licensed is to call me a Project Architect, and yes, my billing rate will probably be changed, but not in the middle of a project, of course. My boss did say, that when I get licensed, we will sit down and negotiate. So, we will see, I will be happy with anything. I love my job and my location. Also, this boss is the first one I ever worked for that didn't want me just to be a CAD monkey and shut up and sit down. He allows me to have an opinion and thoughts and wants to hear them. As he says, he hates preprogrammed stupid robots who can't think on their feet! So, along with that cames much more responsibility. I love it!
I just got a very generous raise and a bonus. So, I will not gripe about anything.
I really think, that if you are in this for the money, you always knew from school, it ain't there! LOL! Find the right chemistry in the office you want to work, have a true passion in your profession and the money will come, evenually, not overnight.
Good Luck!
Thanks for the kind words. I agree with you 110%. Sounds like we are in a similiar situation. I kind of love my work, but our projects ranges from extremely small to small interior health care renovation. I want to do bigger projects.
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dottie
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Posted: Tue Aug 26th, 2008 09:43 pm |
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If bigger projects are what you want to do, you may have to move to another firm. Or, somehow, motivate your employer to start responding to RFP's for bigger projects. Gently push towards something bigger.
I have many bigger projects in my past history, and want to get back to that calibur. In my office now, we have been doing some Sr. Residences and a small school cafeteria addition. This has given me the opportunity to do my ARE and take me kid to football (Every night, except Sunday!).
Our larger office does lots of larger projects, so right now, we will hold tight and they will come our way. This firm, in this branch office, did quite a few large projects a few years back, so, I am confident the cycle will return. Just need to get through this recession.
Lovin' life in Alaska! I had a dear friend of mine say "if you can't afford to travel much, make sure you live somewhere that you really love"! Words of wisdom from someone who lives in a trailer, working as a waitress, raising her family. However, she owns 5 acres of wooded land smack in the middle of a mountain pass in Montana and it is so beautiful! She has a couple of horses and her husband works various odd jobs. She goes to church and enjoys her life.
It all on how you interpet "happy"!
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Alright
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Posted: Sun Aug 31st, 2008 10:41 pm |
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combinat wrote: All I'm saying is, that if you get 4% it is like you didn't' really get more money. You stay the same. You keep up with the inflation, while the firm is probably billing more to the clients. Don't sell yourself short. ENTRY level structural or electrical engineers are making $70k, and you are trying to tell me that we should be content with 5% UPON getting licensed, because this is the corporate practice? If your present company is not willing to pay at least 10%-20%, then another will.
Doctors are getting $250k after they complete their internship and pass the exams (3 year residence). They make $40k while being interns. $40k to $250k!!!
And I'm missing the point?!
The fact that you started this thread proves that you care about money. And yes, the goal of becoming a licensed professional IS earning MORE money while doing what you like to do.
We are all shmucks for not asking what we deserve.
Sigh.
When will people stop comparing apples to oranges? Architects are not working in a structural or electrical engineering firm, and thus, aren't paid as though they are.
Doctors...are you kidding? You really are comparing architects to doctors? Hey, Alex Rodriguez makes $25 Million a year! To hit a baseball! Architects should demand more! Ha. It sounds like you don't have a very basic understanding of economics. You are worth what people are willing to pay you. No more. No less. End. Of. Story. If you want to make $70 grand, go get your engineering degree and work as an engineer. Or, see how good of a negotiator you are. Maybe you can work there getting paid that with an architecture degree only.
So if you ask if you are missing the point, I would say yes. If your goal of becoming licensed is merely to earn more then you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. I'm not expecting to earn more, but I am expecting more job security, and more open doors. Hopefully, more opportunities....that MAY indirectly or directly lead to more money. But just showing your boss a certificate and having him hand you $10 grand isn't how things likely work in most cases.
"We are shmucks for not asking what we deserve". Speak for yourself, son. I'm sorry you are a bad negotiator. It makes sense though, seeing as you have almost zero understanding of basic economics.
- Alright
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combinat
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Posted: Sun Aug 31st, 2008 11:19 pm |
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| Alright, I'm not your "son", and if you have one, I'm really sorry for him. Personal attack like this? Man, YOU really should go to a doctor. Even being next to your post makes me want to vomit with your grandpa widsom.
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Alright
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Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 01:23 am |
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Nice retort. I'm trying to give you a wake up call and some advice, and you attack me. Am I being harsh? Maybe. But you are hemming and hawing about salaries and basically telling us all we are working for charity, and need to go on strike or something, when you clearly have zero understanding of what you are talking about.
Put down Kaplan and read some other books about how a society functions. I wish you the best.
- Alright
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brudgers
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Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 03:55 am |
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Raise.
Salary.
Boss.
Three strikes, you're out.
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pazzo
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Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 06:17 pm |
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| I think best thing to do is switch jobs after getting your license. You can negotiate a higher salary with the new employer.
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bratram
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 07:56 pm |
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this might be a "dead" issue....
I should hopefully be getting my license in the next few weeks/months. Company policy is to give a 'salary raise' of $5K. Fortunately/unfortunately, my 'salary review' comes in the next few months. While the "salary raise" is for becoming a 'recognized' profession, the "salary review" is for my work through this year. But I fear my office will look to bundle both of them and offer me less than what i would have got, if timing was different. This issue is bothering me so much that I am looking to keep my "license" under wraps till the middle of next year or till the "salary review" is over...any suggestions?
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King
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 08:05 pm |
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bratram wrote: this might be a "dead" issue....
I should hopefully be getting my license in the next few weeks/months. Company policy is to give a 'salary raise' of $5K. Fortunately/unfortunately, my 'salary review' comes in the next few months. While the "salary raise" is for becoming a 'recognized' profession, the "salary review" is for my work through this year. But I fear my office will look to bundle both of them and offer me less than what i would have got, if timing was different. This issue is bothering me so much that I am looking to keep my "license" under wraps till the middle of next year or till the "salary review" is over...any suggestions?
Can u keep your mouth shut about finally becoming a licensed Arch.? I can't.
Last edited on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 08:09 pm by King
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Alright
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 10:59 pm |
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bratram wrote: this might be a "dead" issue....
I should hopefully be getting my license in the next few weeks/months. Company policy is to give a 'salary raise' of $5K. Fortunately/unfortunately, my 'salary review' comes in the next few months. While the "salary raise" is for becoming a 'recognized' profession, the "salary review" is for my work through this year. But I fear my office will look to bundle both of them and offer me less than what i would have got, if timing was different. This issue is bothering me so much that I am looking to keep my "license" under wraps till the middle of next year or till the "salary review" is over...any suggestions?
I wouldn't overthink it. Just tell them ASAP. If they give you $5K (which is good I think) for the license, then try to stiff you a couple months later when it's time for normal review then just be like "OK, see ya." Don't play those games. Architects are reknown (sp?) for insulting the intelligence of those who work for them, and trying to get away with it. Often times, they do get away with it and people over-work for little pay out of some irrational dream of becoming some published, famous architect. You see a lot of that in this profession.
Anyway, yeah, just tell them ASAP and if they screw you over then be firm and leave.
- Alright
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brudgers
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 06:06 pm |
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A $5k raise in this economy might be considered pretty good.
Since some people are loosing their jobs.
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bratram
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Posted: Mon Sep 22nd, 2008 11:14 pm |
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mmm....i thought a 5K raise was not much....maybe i am just paid way too less  ..that would not be something new!
...anyway, i think i will hold off on getting on the ARCHITECT bandwagon (at work that is) just yet....will let things play out and see how the salary/performance review goes...
thnx for the replies though....
...meanwhile i am waiting -biting my nails- for my results....i should have known better than to wait to take my graphics exams in the end...i should have known better,,,
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Taffy Davenport
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Posted: Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 06:11 am |
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Do you mind if I ask what sources you searched for information on what architects are making around you? I have a hard time finding that sort of information in anything other than an anecdotal fashion, and that can be a little tricky to bring up in polite company.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
-Taffy
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King
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Posted: Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 12:39 pm |
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| latest AIA compensation survey
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bratram
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Posted: Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 03:30 pm |
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I usually use the Department of Labor survey.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes171011.htm
The information has to be taken with a grain of salt, and with a good idea of where you are in a 'bell curve' (hopefully ahead of the curve). My assumption is that the DOL survey does not assume the fact that a License will help you command a better salary-it goes only by measurab | | |
