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Cannondale
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| Location: | Nor-Cal |
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Posted: Mon Sep 29th, 2008 10:10 pm |
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Folks, need your opinion on something, may be a few of you that wander this forum might actually be my co-worker, so less remain nameless. I sincerely ask for your point of view about this. Is justice served here?
What is a CA license mean salary wise in your opinion?
Location is Norcal (San Francisco Bay area)
I recently got licensed, but a few of my coworker and I, on separate occasions has spoken to our boss about a raise after getting license.
We all got our licenses recently. But our boss said that even though we got our license, it is a personal accomplishment instead of a company gain. Overnight, we didn't gain anything more and offer the company any more than the day before we received our CA Oral supplementary pass letter. He has a point, but I am sincerely interested to know what everyone else in CA, or any where in the US think about this statement.
Some background:
BArch at University of Hawaii (Grad. first in class).
MArch at UCLA,
Interned at Eric Moss's office and governmental arch. office as student.
Worked 5 years with out PM experience (Design, Detailing, CA assistance), 3rd job after graduation.
What is a fair salary I should expect? I think I am not getting what the market is offering and am considering if I should look else where or not.
The only good part about my current job at a 10 person firm is that I start to get the boss's trust, and he let me do a lot of designing, which I enjoys. The pass two firms were published corporate firms but tends to pigeon hole me into 3D modeling and CAD, with only 1 year of CA assistance and detailing shoved in between. I spend 3.5 years doing that before switching to my current firm.
With that, what is a fair market value in your opinion? 40k? 50k 60k, or 70k (as I heard from my study mate who works for the state)
Thank you
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brudgers
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Posted: Mon Sep 29th, 2008 10:42 pm |
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Your license is worth whatever someone is willing to pay.
Your boss has just told you and your co-workers that he's not willing to pay anything for it.
It probably means that your boss doesn't see you or your co-workers as part of a succession plan.
Some firms are just structured that way.
Why don't you and your co-workers start up a firm?
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golfernut78
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| Joined: | Fri Jul 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Euless, Texas |
| Posts: | 237 |
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Posted: Mon Sep 29th, 2008 10:57 pm |
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if your boss believes that you getting licensed is a personal gain (which it is) and is not a gain for the company, then you need to move on.
a month after i got my license i had owner reps call me about that months bill because my hourly rate went up $50 an hour and they wanted to know why and it was because i was a project architect and not a project manager. did i as a person change because i was i got licensed? no. however, for my boss, it was beneficial and he also rewarded for it.
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Coach
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Posted: Mon Sep 29th, 2008 11:21 pm |
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In general, some of what you hold dear is irrelevant in the architecture market. For example, class rank matters in law and medicine, but not architecture. And while I'm sure you got a fine education, the UH BArch isn't accedited and neither school is on the radar as topflight programs.
But the point it, none of that really matters so much, not in California anyway.
What I couldn't discern from your post is your total, full-time professional experience. It's also hard to gauge the depth and breadth of your experience but it does sound weak for someone with a license. The truth is, screaming through the licensing process isn't that beneficial.
An important point that you partially acknowledged is that nothing has changed for your current employer. This is common. For an instant bump in salary of any significance, you'll have to move. This is especially true for a 10 man firm with "a few" new conversions to licensee. How can your firm absorb that without more business?
So the key to remaining at your firm and seeing an appreciable income increase is to become a rainmaker. A potential problem with that is your boss may be very picky or not want new clients at all.
Specific salaries are difficult to determine. In this market, yes, at your level, you might make more working for the state.
Or, if you had 10 years of sector PA experience, you could get into 6 figures.
As a generalist with a license but minimal experience, I'm afraid you're looking at roughly 50k, maybe a bit more depending on location.
I'm not saying it's right, that's just the way it is.
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Cannondale
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Posted: Mon Sep 29th, 2008 11:47 pm |
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All Three,
I value your opinions. Thank you.
We should start our own firm, if it isn't that all 3 of us recent licensed are at that level where we kind of still need the manager's guidance once in a while, but can complete a small/ medium job on our own. Me probably being the thinest in experience since the corporate firm taught me not much about an architect than a CAD expert.
Coach, I think you hit me dead on, experience wise. Both of my previous firms, I left b/c I feel that I am not gaining enough to be an architect.
This current firm feels like a big learning experience for me as each time I open the code, I am learn something new, like a sponge to water. In the old firms, i felt like I am not absorbing nearly anywhere a sponge should.
And I do realize now days that academic achievements ain't of much value to the real world, but what can be accomplished in real world is what the boss and client values.
Perhaps is like what my mentor told me once, work dirt cheap for a good architect who knows his stuffs (my boss), work for a few years there and learn as much as I can, then leave when you are more capable and start a business.
Last edited on Tue Sep 30th, 2008 12:01 am by Cannondale
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niro
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Posted: Tue Sep 30th, 2008 06:05 am |
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Cannondale wrote: Perhaps is like what my mentor told me once, work dirt cheap for a good architect who knows his stuffs (my boss), work for a few years there and learn as much as I can, then leave when you are more capable and start a business.
I do not think you need to work dirt cheap to learn...
I do not think having a good architect to learn from is required for learning...
you learn what you want to learn, and when you realized how little you really know is actually when you being to learn...
I learn tools of the trade from my competent mentors, and learn what not to do from less competent architects...
I got paid well because I asked for it...its actally very simple.
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brudgers
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Posted: Tue Sep 30th, 2008 03:28 pm |
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If you can complete small and medium projects on your own, your sufficiently experienced to work on your own.
As a startup, you probably won't get large projects anyway.
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alldone
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Posted: Tue Sep 30th, 2008 06:10 pm |
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Cannondale wrote: But our boss said that even though we got our license, it is a personal accomplishment instead of a company gain.
Congrats on your CA license! It is very impressive to get it with 5 years experience. You should feel stand out being licensed at this young age. But I cannot agree with your boss. Architect license has its market value, if you boss cannot see it and view this only a personal accomplishment, then you should move on. There are tons of small firms (5-20 persons) will give you the experience that you need. I do not believe in "working dirt-cheap" for anyone in any profession. You worked so hard for this license, and you should get compensated by market value accordingly. I think there are many firms out there which value your license and great potential. Check AIA career center and all the on-line websites or newspaper. I feel market in SF is not as bad as some other area. You can only know how much that you are worth by checking out the market. Good luck!Last edited on Tue Sep 30th, 2008 06:11 pm by alldone
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Coach
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Posted: Tue Sep 30th, 2008 07:59 pm |
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alldone wrote: But I cannot agree with your boss. Architect license has its market value, You don't have to agree, it's not your firm. We're talking about 10 man firm with at least 3 fresh licensees. Put yourself in the principal's shoes. Cannondale has admitted his shortcomings and his boss, I'm sure, is well aware of them as well. I also challenge the notion that a license in and of itself has value if the holder cannot perform. This is the elephant in the room that IDP attempted to slay. It's what's between the lines every time one of us suggests that a candidate has insufficient experience to take an exam. It's why California has a supplemental exam, and yet, this thread is evidence that there are always outlyers. Mere posession of a license does not make one competent. Cannondale is smart enough to see that.
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alldone
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Posted: Tue Sep 30th, 2008 08:09 pm |
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Coach wrote: alldone wrote: I also challenge the notion that a license in and of itself has value if the holder cannot perform.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Cannondale has more value now than the time he was not licensed.
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Coach
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Posted: Tue Sep 30th, 2008 08:17 pm |
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alldone wrote: Coach wrote: alldone wrote: I also challenge the notion that a license in and of itself has value if the holder cannot perform.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Cannondale has more value now than the time he was not licensed. That's the point. Without the ability to perform independently as an architect, he/she does not. You're trying to turn an apple into an orange by hanging a piece of paper on the wall.
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Shep
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Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 04:27 pm |
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Don't let him fool you. It is worth more to him. He can now charge a higher hourly rate for your time to his clients. He is being greedy. Not only is it worth more on the money side, but he can now advertise he has more registered architects. Which may or may not get the company more or larger jobs.
Did he pay for any of your exams? If so, he may feel he doesn't need to give you a raise at the present time.
I beleive you should get some sort of bump up. And if he is not willing to advance your pay scale, it may be the sign to look elsewhere.
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brudgers
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Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 07:17 pm |
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There are many projects that don't involve hourly billing.
If the fee is fixed, a worker bee's license doesn't generate any revenue.
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CA Girl
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Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 07:58 pm |
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I work at a small firm and recieved an immediate raise when I got the letter in the mail. Then at the next evaluation I got a significant raise. One thing to think about is whether your office is slowing down at all in the current market. You may have a tougher time finding either a new job or starting a firm with the current economics.
If your office generally does hourly and your boss is billing you out at a new higher rate then there should be a raise. The problem is if your office doesn't generally bill hourly then your boss isn't getting any additional funds for your new status. Good luck in your decision.
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ironwarrior
Architect
| Joined: | Thu May 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Architect, LEED AP, Anime Freak, West Virginia USA |
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Posted: Thu Oct 9th, 2008 08:06 pm |
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Honestly, I'm more of the "be your own boss" type person. My boss made me his partner (well, I pretty much was anyway) after I was licensed, so I get 1/2 of the architect's fees for projects I work on.
Upside: I've grossed about $125K so far this year
Downside: I'm still broke--I get 1/2 the business expenses too.
While I don't have a formal architecture education, I have 15 formal years of experience and probably about 25 total years. I have no fear tackling about any size project and will do almost anything. The only projects I won't do unless there is a LOT of money involved is residential. My temperament is not conducive for those clientele.
I think the idea of you creating a firm with the other two is a good idea IF AND ONLY IF you and they are willing to accept risk. Let me emphatically state this: while the $125K I mentioned above seems happy-snappy, there are months where I have to steal food from my tarantulas and cats.
Also, if you are used to a comfortable 40 hour week, paid vacations, benefits, etc., you probably should NOT start your own business. It is very rare for me to work less than 6 days a week and I don't get any "benefits package" other than not having to be a corporate slave.
Again, it all comes back to risk and accepting all the inherent liabilities associated with being your own boss. If you are your own boss, you can decide how much you think your license is worth.
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Elwood
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Posted: Fri Oct 10th, 2008 07:07 pm |
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| Unless you have a compelling reason to stay where you are, and at your current rate...leave! You'll begin to understand if your boss counters an offer that you receive. It's easier said than done, of course. Last edited on Fri Oct 10th, 2008 07:08 pm by Elwood
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skyhook
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Posted: Sat Oct 11th, 2008 08:33 pm |
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True. Reluctantly accepting anothers assigned value for you, is far different than setting out solo. Far safer to accept an assessment from one, than to reaffirm your own value; client to client,,,contract to contract,,,invention to invention.
To me, anyone who stays in this business long enough, will naturally yearn to be the boss...might as well get on with it sooner, than later. I went out 10 yrs. ago, and will never look back, nor could I work for someone again.
I love the force couple that only fear and freedom can offer.
Attached Image (viewed 563 times):
 Last edited on Sat Oct 11th, 2008 10:02 pm by skyhook
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stl-guy
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Posted: Sat Oct 11th, 2008 10:48 pm |
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I suppose starting your own business is an option. I have done that. I have preferred rather to find an established firm and help grow it.
You are to be commended for your accomplishments.
Things take time. Credentials are great and you can hold your head up and be proud of what you have done. Experience and a successfully track record with clients is also important. How much value are you bringing to your firm? Management determines that. Sometimes it takes a drastic decision to make a move in order to advance. Networking usually plays a part in this. Have any headhunters contacted you now that you have the proper credentials in CA?
Perhaps not because of the extremely uncertain financial situation and pending recession.
I'm up for a promotion myself. If I do get, it I'm not going to expect more money, only more responsibility to better do my job.
If I don't get it, well so be it I'm not planning to make a move in the uncertain times we face, I will just be glad that I got an interview and that I hopefully still have a job.
Last edited on Sat Oct 11th, 2008 10:52 pm by stl-guy
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Matt_A
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Posted: Sun Oct 12th, 2008 01:14 am |
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As the owner of a firm, it's my perception that if the owner of your firm told you that you were no more valuable as an architect than you were as an intern, that it would not be wrong for you to understand him to be suggesting that you look for a better job somewhere else. Others may think this is too strong, but I think his response was an insult to you and your accomplishment. Perhaps he does not appreciate the effort that you have exerted, perhaps his projects are drying up and he is afraid for the future, but any firm knows that a licensed architect is more valuable to it's bottom line than a non-licensed one, and they should understand that if they do not share the benefits of having you on their staff they will lose them.
You sound like a thoughtful person who would profit more by spending your time in a place where it is regarded as more valuable.
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pgharchintern
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Posted: Sun Oct 12th, 2008 05:39 am |
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Try setting up a family budget using Excel as I did, then, you'll see what you're worth. The budget below is taken directly from my budget. It is mathmatically incorrect but you'll get the idea.
DESCRIPTION
STATUS
Monthly
Yearly
Bi-Mthly
Total Income ( After taxes)
3,507.58
42,090.96
1,753.79
Total Expenditures (Monthly)
3,471.00
Net Cash Flow (Monthly)
36.58
438.96
YEARLY INCOME
50,000.00
Wage/Salary ( Monthly)
4500.00
Wage/Salary ( Bi-Weekly)
2250.00
Hourly rate ( 10v, 5s, 6h) (2080E)
25.96
Note: Indicated hours of overtime per month provides additional cashflow not included in this assesment
0
Hours OT
0
EXPENDITURES
Per Month
Per Year
Per Week
Allegheny Power
56
672.00
14.00
Columbia Gas
165
1980.00
41.25
PA American Water
45
540.00
11.25
PT Sanitary
29
348.00
7.25
Comcast ( TV & Internet)
98
1176.00
24.50
Garbage
16
192.00
4.00
Tax-School, Real, Income, Municip
138
1656.00
34.50
Verizon Wireless
102
1224.00
25.50
Auto Insurance
125
1500.00
31.25
Health Care/Medical Costs
700
4176.00
87.00
Home Insurance
50
600.00
12.50
Auto Fuel/transportation costs
300
3600.00
75.00
CASH
200
2400.00
50.00
Credit Card
700
8400.00
175.00
Entertainment
200
2400.00
50.00
Groceries & Other Food
500
6000.00
125.00
Newspaper
13
156.00
3.25
Church
50
600.00
12.50
Car Payment/Maintenance
150
1800.00
37.50
Retirement Investment
50
600.00
12.50
Misc. House Expendatures
100
1200.00
25.00
Vacation Costs ( 3000 & 2500 )
0
0.00
0.00
Yearly Tax Preparation - Accountant
36
432.00
9.00
Employment Taxes
Bi-Mthly
FED INC TX
510.00
255.00
PA UNEMPLY
344.26
172.13
PA STATE
138.16
69.08
Total
992.42
496.21
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gleearch
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Posted: Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 12:10 am |
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It is always good practice to keep interviewing even if you like where you work.
This keeps your interviewing skills fresh and at the same time it helps you understand what your worth is.
I was an associate at my last firm for 10 years. I kept interviewing all through that time. It helps when you know your worth and it's time for year end appraisals and salary negotiations.
Why did you obtain your license for? Was there worth to it? If there wasn't, you would not have bothered. Yes, there is personal gain when you obtain your license, however there is gain to a firm too. Most firms are listed and when they do, they list the number of architects. On a personal front I should have just got my butt in gear and completed it earlier rather than sitting on just one test for 6 years.
So while you may not have the experience yet, at least you got the license out of the way. Experience? Well it comes with time and as you already noticed it depends on the type of firm you work for.
Truth of the matter is that only you hold the cards to your future. The market is uncertain right now but you have a license. If two candidates with similar experience & skill sets, walk in the door and one had a license. Who do you think will be hired?
Everything else being equal that is.
if you are short on experience, well it's time to get it.
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alldone
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Posted: Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 03:27 am |
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gleearch wrote: I was an associate at my last firm for 10 years. I kept interviewing all through that time. It helps when you know your worth and it's time for year end appraisals and salary negotiations.
Does your employer know that you are interviewing in other places? Also did you reject all those offers since your worked in the same place for 10 years. I always went out interviewing when I truly wanted to leave, and I always left after it. I feel that if I just practice interviewing and reject the offer, it will hurt the potential opportunities in the future. In the city where I live, it is a small world for architects. everyone has some connections to the employer or co-workers. and if I go out for interviewing, somehow the word will go back to the employer. How can you keep it as a secret without jeopardizing your current job? Thanks.
Last edited on Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 03:28 am by alldone
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gleearch
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Posted: Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 04:45 pm |
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Everyone has a right to interview. No law against it.
I interviewed got the offer and negotiated. Sometimes I didn't. In most cases they were for positions similar to mine. In the last few years they were for partnerships.
It is a small world for the architectural field. Are you doing anything wrong by interviewing? What ethics did you break, exactly, by doing so? There is no law preventing employees from interviewing. Unless your firm has a contract that forbids you from interviewing.
Just as an employer does not have to hire you because they interviewed you, at the same time it means you do not have to accept their offer if it did not suit you.
Interview or don't interview, it's up to you. I'm merely providing my point of view.
In most cases the salary would have matched or in some cases were better. However I had a ton of vacation time at my firm which most would not match. Plus I was an associate, while some were willing to match the title, not all were.
When I was interviewing for partnerships that was a different matter all together.
Just as some have noted here in this thread, in many cases you obtain a better pay by moving on. But that isn't necessary all the time. It costs a firm a lot of money and time to train replacements. In many cases it's worth their while to match or beat an offer.
I don't flaunt the offers of the other firms in their faces, I use the number as a guide when negotiating a raise.
Obviously everyone needs to do what is within their comfort range.
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gleearch
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Posted: Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 04:58 pm |
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I guess I should add that the firm I worked for had been around for awhile. Many of their former employees went on to form their own firms. In some cases firms that were well known and far bigger than the firm they originally came from.
In many cases some of these firms reached out to me to interview with them.
In other cases it was with firms that were in direct competition. Everyone knows one another in this field. I attend the local AIA Chapter events and there are many people there who interviewed me before. Now some of them interview or attend RFP meetings alongside me.
I never understood this concept of fearing what the architectural world would do to you. Did you do anything wrong? Rip off the firm, deliberately steal or solicit clients away from them, pocketed those sharpie pens everyday you went home, moonlight when it was clearly against policy, etc? Well if you clearly broke the law or did something unethical, then you should be worried.
maybe i should have preface what I had written by stating that if you are going to do anything, treat both the interviewer and the interviewee with respect and act professionally.
When I did leave my firm, there was a standing offer for me to return. I doubt I will but you should always try to not burn bridges.
Oh, another thing. My old firm knew I interviewed. They expected it. It's business.
Last edited on Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 05:02 pm by gleearch
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jstorr
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 05:48 pm |
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