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billarch
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Posted: Wed Oct 1st, 2008 09:30 pm |
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Ok, so I have done about 20 computer renderings at my previous job. I did not design them, but I did do the renderings.
Can I post these renderings on my own website as examples of my work to attract other work? Not sure how to approach this?
As always, any advice is appreciated.
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Phlustered
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Posted: Wed Oct 1st, 2008 09:52 pm |
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You need to get the firm's permission to use them.
They are the property of the firm.
It's likely that the firm will allow you to use them, if you have a good relationship with the firm. You'll need to identify the firm (unless they don't want you to) and make your role in the project clear.
Occasionally there are confidentiality clauses or other contractual or privacy issues that may prevent the publication of the renderings.
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dreamtiger
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Posted: Mon Oct 20th, 2008 12:45 am |
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I also wonder this about work I did as an independent contractor for a firm I did some work for. If I did design and rendering for a firm, but technically this company was buying my services, shouldn't I be able to present the work as my own? This has been on their website for awhile now...there was never any contract signed, but I wonder who really has the rights to such renderings and drawings?
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BetterMousetrap
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Posted: Mon Oct 20th, 2008 01:12 am |
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| If you're an independent contractor then you own the rights to the rendering, if you put that in your contract. They own the rights to the design.
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brudgers
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Posted: Mon Oct 20th, 2008 04:31 am |
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dreamtiger wrote: I also wonder this about work I did as an independent contractor for a firm I did some work for. If I did design and rendering for a firm, but technically this company was buying my services, shouldn't I be able to present the work as my own? This has been on their website for awhile now...there was never any contract signed, but I wonder who really has the rights to such renderings and drawings?
Provided you were an independent contractor, unless you specifically signed it away, you own the copyright for your work.
Technically, you could probably demand a license fee for any use beyond your deliverables...but I'm not an attorney.
Since you own the copyright, you certainly have the right to use the images however you see fit...(though again I'm not an attorney).
The big issue is to make sure that you identify your role as being something other than the architect.
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Kellhammer
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Posted: Mon Oct 20th, 2008 02:05 pm |
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| "Independent Contractor " can have a fuzzy meaning. The firm you had done the work for may have some policy regarding this exact issue. Might be worth a conversation with them. Hopefully for you, there was something in writing that addresses this issue specifically.
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wograr
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Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 11:09 pm |
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billarch wrote: Ok, so I have done about 20 computer renderings at my previous job. I did not design them, but I did do the renderings.
Can I post these renderings on my own website as examples of my work to attract other work? Not sure how to approach this?
As always, any advice is appreciated.
Are they an AIA firm? If so, the AIA code of ethics requires them to permit you to use the images as long as you inform them of your intent and give them credit as the copyright owners.
If not, general business ethics should operate in a similar fashion...assuming your relationship is in good standing.
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wograr
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Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 11:12 pm |
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dreamtiger wrote: I also wonder this about work I did as an independent contractor for a firm I did some work for. If I did design and rendering for a firm, but technically this company was buying my services, shouldn't I be able to present the work as my own? This has been on their website for awhile now...there was never any contract signed, but I wonder who really has the rights to such renderings and drawings?
My firm has a clause in their sub-contractors contract that gives us ownership. Typically, unless this type of clause is included, the ownership belongs to the independant contractor.
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 04:40 pm |
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Are they an AIA firm? If so, the AIA code of ethics requires them to permit you to use the images as long as you inform them of your intent and give them credit as the copyright owners.
Sort of....
First off, the AIA doesn't require firms to allow the use of any images or work done in that firm for publication purposes by former employees.
If you were an employee:
The AIA's policy is that firms must allow departing employees to take representative samples of the work that they did in the firm, for use in their portfolios. Note that this does not grant the right to publish the work - just to use it in a personal portfolio. Using the work on a website is considered publishing and you must get the firm's permission for that specifically.
The AIA has made the following statements about this policy:
The firm is allowed to choose what drawings and images an employee may take. The AIA's policy covers only hard copies of work - not digital files. For example, if you did renderings while employed in the firm then the firm needs to let you take representative samples - but these can be only paper copies if the firm so chooses, and they don't need to let you take every rendering from a project, or even renderings from every project you worked on.
The firm doesn't have to allow the employee to take all images or even examples from every project he worked on - just a representative sample.
The firm does not have to release any digital files at all - these are the firm's property and the employee cannot take them, copy them, or use them without permission.
The firm has the right to charge the employee for expenses related to the materials he takes - meaning copying costs like ink and paper, photos, etc. They can even charge you for someone's time to make these copies. Some firms have been known to abuse this policy by charging high fees for photographs and copies of drawings, or even by charging the departing employee the costs for a photo shoot!
But all in all most firms are pretty cooperative about allowing employees to take samples of their work.
The AIA has deemed that a "reasonable period" for the employee to request images and for the employer to provide them is less than a year after the employee's departure. If the employee requests work samples after that point the employer is not bound by AIA policy to grant them.
If the person who created the renderings was truly an independent contractor then the renderings are generally considered to be instruments of service of the independent contractor and belong to him to use as he likes - though he needs to properly identify them and credit the firm for the design. But in that situation he should have a contract that makes this clear from the start.
Last edited on Sun Oct 26th, 2008 08:57 pm by Spellcaster
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brudgers
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 03:06 pm |
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Spellcaster wrote:
Are they an AIA firm? If so, the AIA code of ethics requires them to permit you to use the images as long as you inform them of your intent and give them credit as the copyright owners.
Sort of....
First off, the AIA doesn't require firms to allow the use of any images or work done in that firm for publication purposes by former employees.
If you were an employee:
The AIA's policy is that firms must allow departing employees to take representative samples of the work that they did in the firm, for use in their portfolios. Note that this does not grant the right to publish the work - just to use it in a personal portfolio. Using the work on a website is considered publishing and you must get the firm's permission for that specifically.
Under copyright law, putting it in your portfoilio is just as much publishing it...the means of publishing can be a one-off. That's how paintings, sculptures, and architectural works are protected. And besides, portfolios are digital these days anyway. But of course, I'm not a lawyer.
The AIA has made the following statements about this policy:
The firm is allowed to choose what drawings and images an employee may take. The AIA's policy covers only hard copies of work - not digital files. For example, if you did renderings while employed in the firm then the firm needs to let you take representative samples - but these can be only paper copies if the firm so chooses, and they don't need to let you take every rendering from a project, or even renderings from every project you worked on.
The firm doesn't have to allow the employee to take all images or even examples from every project he worked on - just a representative sample.
The firm does not have to release any digital files at all - these are the firm's property and the employee cannot take them, copy them, or use them without permission.
The firm has the right to charge the employee for expenses related to the materials he takes - meaning copying costs like ink and paper, photos, etc. They can even charge you for someone's time to make these copies. Some firms have been known to abuse this policy by charging high fees for photographs and copies of drawings, or even by charging the departing employee the costs for a photo shoot!
But all in all most firms are pretty cooperative about allowing employees to take samples of their work.
The AIA has deemed that a "reasonable period" for the employee to request images and for the employer to provide them is less than a year after the employee's departure. If the employee requests work samples after that point the employer is not bound by AIA policy to grant them.
If the person who created the renderings was truly an independent contractor then the renderings are generally considered to be instruments of service of the independent contractor and belong to him to use as he likes - though he needs to properly identify them and credit the firm for the design. But in that situation he should have a contract that makes this clear from the start.
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 03:13 pm |
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The problem is that the AIA's policy was written in the 1980s and hasn't been changed significantly since, so the policy itself doesn't take into account the possibility of a digital portfolio.
But in recent years the AIA has issued decisions and opinions on lost of individual cases related to AIA-member employees and employers reported to be in violation of this rule, and those decisions and the commentaries issued with them are where I am getting most of the statements above.
In some decisions they have stated that CAD and other computer files might be included under the policy as materials that an employee might reasonably be allowed to take - as long as it doesn't compromise confidentiality. But in other decisions they've said that computer files aren't necessarily guaranteed to employees - that the policy is designed to cover paper copies - and that it's at the discretion of the employer to allow digital files to be copied and used by employees.
The AIA also makes a distinction between using work samples in an individual portfolio (digital or not) that is sent or shown to prospective employers and clients, and posting the images on a website, or using them in a marketing brochure, or other wide distribution. The 1980's policy has been interpreted to allow only the former.
In advisory opinions the AIA has indicated that the policy was intended to aid departing employees in seeking other positions in the field - not to aid in a situation where the original firm's projects could be used by the departing employee in advertising that might compete against the original firm.
Most firms are reasonable about allowing former employers to use materials. I suggest discussing this with the former employer directly.Last edited on Mon Oct 27th, 2008 03:40 pm by Spellcaster
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brudgers
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 03:50 pm |
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The AIA's work sample policies are the least of its shortcomings.
And the whole distinction between getting another job and going into competition is just another manifestation of them.
The policies are toothless. The AIA doesn't stop taking anyone's money even after the most agregious conduct.
Let's remember that this is the organization that was found in violation of anti-trust laws and that for many years tolerated it's members charging inters to work for member firms.
Even a recent survey of it's members found that diversity in the profession was not a priority, despite staggering homogenity and stunning evidence that women and minorities have alarmingly low licensure rates.
On ethics, it's NCARB which has taken leadership. They've actually passed laws.
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 04:16 pm |
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No argument on any of that.
The point was just that the AIA code of ethics doesn't require firms to let former employees use materials for advertising purposes in the first place, so using that as a justification for using files without permission is just a bad idea. I've seen that claim about the AIA policy a lot of times on here and was just trying to clarify what the AIA does and doesn't allow.
There are enough cases on state boards' logs (where it actually matters, and you can get fined, or get your license suspended) sanctioning people for stealing files from employers, misusing work samples, improperly crediting work, etc. that I think it's important for people to understand that there's just no policy out there - including the AIA's - that says that kind of thing is ok. You should always talk with the employer and get permission for whatever it is you want to use the files for.Last edited on Mon Oct 27th, 2008 04:25 pm by Spellcaster
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brudgers
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 04:37 pm |
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Spellcaster wrote: No argument on any of that.
The point was just that the AIA code of ethics doesn't require firms to let former employees use materials for advertising purposes in the first place, so using that as a justification for using files without permission is just a bad idea. I've seen that claim about the AIA policy a lot of times on here and was just trying to clarify what the AIA does and doesn't allow.
There are enough cases on state boards' logs (where it actually matters, and you can get fined, or get your license suspended) sanctioning people for stealing files from employers, misusing work samples, improperly crediting work, etc. that I think it's important for people to understand that there's just no policy out there - including the AIA's - that says that kind of thing is ok. You should always talk with the employer and get permission for whatever it is you want to use the files for.
Of the state disciplinary actions I've monitored, I've never seen a case regarding theft or misuse of files.
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 04:47 pm |
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There are a lot of those on some boards, very few if any on others.
The statutes in some states cover these issues while others don't, so I don't think some states might deal with them at a board level at all.
Here's one from Ohio about misuse of files (I remember this one because I know the person involved):
"This architect allegedly did not indicate on his new website that featured design projects and commissions were completed while employed by, or in association with another firm. This matter was resolved whereby the Board issued a warning letter to the architect."
I'll find some others later...Last edited on Mon Oct 27th, 2008 05:09 pm by Spellcaster
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brudgers
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 05:14 pm |
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Incorrectly taking credit for another architect's work is different from theft or misuse of files.
It would fall under deliberate misrepresentation to a client.
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 05:41 pm |
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Well my guess is that most of the cases where boards fine or warn architects for improperly taking images, etc. involve some underlying story of websites or marketing materials or some other issue of credit or other misrepresentation (because that's how the complainant finds out that the materials have been taken.)
But, here is an old one from TX that doesn't make any mention of how the materials were used (or of misrepresentation of the architect's qualifications, etc.)
The board ruled that the Architect violated obligations of professional conduct by taking copies of project photographs from his former firm without permission. (Registration suspended pursuant to an Agreed Order approved by this Board.)
My guess would be that he did something additional that he wasn't supposed to do with the photos - like use them in marketing - because otherwise how would the former employer know he took them? (besides which, license suspension seems a little steep for merely appropriating copies of photos alone). But it doesn't say that...
To reiterate: the important thing is just to get permission from the firm for anything that you take, and for the purposes for which you intend to use it.
The AIA doesn't grant you any right to take things and publish them without permission, and you can get into various forms of trouble over these issues.Last edited on Mon Oct 27th, 2008 06:26 pm by Spellcaster
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wograr
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 08:39 pm |
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Spellcaster wrote:
First off, the AIA doesn't require firms to allow the use of any images or work done in that firm for publication purposes by former employees.
From the AIA Code of Ethics
E.S. 5.3 Professional Recognition: Members should build their professional reputation on the merits of their own service and performance and should recognize and give credit to others for the professional work they have performed.
Rule 5.301: Members shall recognize and respect the professional contributions of their employees, employers, professional colleagues, and business associates.
Rule 5.302: Members leaving a firm shall not, without the permission of their employer or partner, take designs, drawings, data, reports, notes, or other materials relating to the firm's work, whether or not performed by the Member.
Rule 5.303: A Member shall not unreasonably withhold permission from a departing employee or partner to take copies of designs, drawings, data, reports, notes, or other materials relating to work performed by the employee or partner that are not confidential.
My attorney's interpretation of this was basically, that 5.303 states that the firm is required to let you take copies of whatever materials worked on. They can, however, require the departing employee to pay for the printing/copying costs.
5.302, of course, requires that the departing member get permission to take any such materials.
5.301 is broadly stating that colleagues within the profession should allow each other the use of such materials in their portfolios and other marketing materials (including websites) to advance their professional careers. In turn, the user, out of professional courtesy, should provide proper credit to the owner of the documents.
Anyway...that is how i was legally directed, have performed, and have had no issues with any past employers.
Last edited on Mon Oct 27th, 2008 08:41 pm by wograr
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 09:47 pm |
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Your attorney advised you on AIA policy?
The AIA has interpreted their own policies differently, particularly where the word "representative" comes in (they have not read this to mean that an employee has the right to take samples from every project they've worked on. they've upheld employers' rights to choose what samples the employee may take, etc.)
Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 01:17 am by Spellcaster
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wograr
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Posted: Tue Oct 28th, 2008 01:32 am |
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Spellcaster wrote: Your attorney advised you on AIA policy?
The AIA has interpreted their own policies differently, particularly where the word "representative" comes in (they have not read this to mean that an employee has the right to take samples from every project they've worked on. they've upheld employers' rights to choose what samples the employee may take, etc.)
"shall not unreasonably withhold permission"
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Tue Oct 28th, 2008 01:59 am |
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The interpretation of "unreasonable" by the AIA has been fairly creative - and not consistent from year to year (it seems to vary with the membership of the advisory board).
For instance there's a case in the AIA archives where a former employee complained that she hadn't been allowed to take various materials that she'd worked on. The AIA ruled that the employer had not been unreasonable in refusing to allow her to take ANY of the materials requested, because he was not particularly computer-literate and was confused as to what exactly some of the materials were and whether her taking them might somehow compromise confidentiality - so he decided to deal with the request by refusing to allow her to take anything. The AIA found that position reasonable and ruled in favor of the employer (and also against the employee on a related "counter claim" of her taking some images without permission.)
In that particular case the employee and employer were later able to reach an agreement after the employee submitted clearer explanations of exactly what it was that she wanted to take, allowing her computer-challenged boss to better understand that she wasn't compromising confidentiality...
In another case the AIA panel wrote:
We note that while it is not unethical to refuse
requests from former employees for copies of
their work, members certainly are permitted, and
encouraged, to go beyond the minimum
requirements of the rules in respecting the
professional aspirations of their colleagues. We
hope members will exercise discretion in
accommodating such requests when they are
reasonable.
In that same decision they ruled that a departing employee did not have to be provided with photographs that the firm had taken of projects on which the employee had worked:
If the Convention that adopted this Code of Ethics
had intended to include photographs, it would
have done so explicitly. We think that it stretches
the language of the rule too far to find that
professionally commissioned photographs not
taken by the employee himself must be supplied
by an employer to his departing employees.
I'm a little surprised that your attorney would offer any opinion at all on AIA policies. They're not generally legally enforceable and don't tend to stand up in court - or in state board disciplinary cases where the AIA policies often differ from state rules and laws.
Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 02:18 pm by Spellcaster
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FinitoCompleto
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Posted: Tue Oct 28th, 2008 02:36 am |
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I think this whole discussion of the intricacies of AIA actions is silly. The fact remains that it doesn't matter if the AIA finds against your boss anyway, because that won't force him to cooperate, or magically let you take any files, or whatever.
Spellcaster didn't post any of the ones where the AIA found that the employee was right, but it doesn't matter, because all the employer gets is a slap on the wrist at most:
"For his unreasonable refusal to give a departing employee access to material relating to the employee's work with the firm, we find the employer violated R.5.203 of the AIA Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct, and impose the penalty of Admonition. A letter of Admonition from the Secretary of the Institute, along with a report on this case, will be placed in the employer's AIA membership file."
Big fat hairy deal!
There are a few states that have ethics codes as part of their board rules. You're more likely to get useful action from your board, if you happen to be in one of those states, than you'll get from the AIA.
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brudgers
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Posted: Tue Oct 28th, 2008 03:47 pm |
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FinitoCompleto wrote: the penalty of Admonition. A letter of Admonition from the Secretary of the Institute, along with a report on this case, will be placed in the employer's AIA membership file."
Shirly, you didn't expect them to stop taking the firm's money?
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wograr
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Posted: Tue Oct 28th, 2008 04:58 pm |
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Spellcaster wrote:
I'm a little surprised that your attorney would offer any opinion at all on AIA policies. They're not generally legally enforceable and don't tend to stand up in court - or in state board disciplinary cases where the AIA policies often differ from state rules and laws.
AIA policies are not legally enforceable...but in the event of legal action they can be recited as expected standards of practice my members.
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