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BetterMousetrap
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Posted: Mon Nov 3rd, 2008 07:26 pm |
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I've been interviewing people all morning for a production manager job. It put me in a bad mood.
I understand the reasons that people pad their resumes, and I expect most people will do this a bit - or that at least there will be a fine line between showing all their accomplishments and credentials in their best light and exaggerating a little.
So if that describes you then don't feel that I'm targeting this at you.
What drives me crazy is people completely wasting my time with gross exaggeration and borderline lies.
For instance I had a guy this morning who had sent a cover letter saying he had "20+ years of experience" and that he had "led production teams and was in-house project manager on numerous large university buildings."
But it turns out that his 20 years of experience is made of more than 20 jobs at 20 different firms! He has a long, long history of working a few months then getting laid off and collecting unemployment for a few months, has had only had one job that lasted more than a year, and has never worked on a single CD set from beginning to end.
When I asked about the university buildings he brought out a 5-page 18" x 12" set for a renovation project on 4 identical classrooms that involved little more than new paint, brackets for AV equipment, and VCT tile patterns. When I asked about his experience with two of the 17 software applications he listed on his resume as being "proficient" with it turned out he didn't have any professional experience with either but "thought they seemed similar enough" to AutoCAD that it was ok to claim proficiency.
So please:
Respect the interviewer's time and the firm's needs. Don't pretend to be something you're not.
1. 20 jobs in 20 years is not 20 years of experience. Effectively that's the same one year of experience (except you didn't even last that long) over and over and over.
2. If you're "proficient" with the firm's software then I expect to be able to sit you down with a copy of the firm's standards and have you working on a project on your first day. I don't expect that it will take days or weeks of you doing tutorials or reading manuals before you're ready to draw anything. "Proficient" implies having knowledge and general competence.
3. If you claim to have management experience it isn't going to make anybody happy to find out that you meant that you managed to gather together all the sheets that everybody was working on and plot and staple 15 drawing sets all by yourself!
4. Ok, technically you've worked on "large university buildings". But save future potential interviewers some time and energy by making it clear these were small-scale interior renovations only and that you've never worked on any sections, framing drawings, structural or MEP coordination, etc.
If you had been more upfront with us we would have considered you for another position - one with a little more supervision. Maybe one where you could last longer than a few months and move up to an actual management level. But you just came across as overreaching at best, dishonest at worst.
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rdenks
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Posted: Mon Nov 3rd, 2008 08:22 pm |
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So you're saying I probably won't get that posititon we talked about today?!?!!?
I'm kidding of course. I can imagine your frustration, maybe a little wisecrack may cheer you up.
If that didn't work maybe the 30 election voicemails and fliers you will get today will do the trick.
Happy Hunting
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rdenks
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Posted: Mon Nov 3rd, 2008 08:22 pm |
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So you're saying I probably won't get that posititon we talked about today?!?!!?
I'm kidding of course. I can imagine your frustration, and I thought maybe a little wisecrack may cheer you up.
If that didn't work maybe the 30 election voicemails and fliers you will get today will do the trick.
Happy Hunting
Last edited on Mon Nov 3rd, 2008 08:23 pm by rdenks
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brudgers
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Posted: Mon Nov 3rd, 2008 08:29 pm |
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It upsets me too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMV0LKlVj8I
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FinitoCompleto
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Posted: Mon Nov 3rd, 2008 08:36 pm |
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But it turns out that his 20 years of experience is made of more than 20 jobs at 20 different firms! He has a long, long history of working a few months then getting laid off and collecting unemployment for a few months, has had only had one job that lasted more than a year, and has never worked on a single CD set from beginning to end.
Mousetrap, where are you located? I could swear I interviewed this same guy!
Unfortunately the likelihood is that there are a lot more than one of him.
The only advice I can offer is that if someone sends you a cover letter claiming 20 years of experience make sure to get a resume that covers those 20 years BEFORE you extend an interview. Asking some questions by email and asking for a complete resume if you haven't already been sent one should help to prevent calling in most completely unqualified candidates.
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stupid-architect-intern
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 01:29 am |
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so you mean if someone is working for 10 or 20 years in one firm, they do better experiences than someone who had 20 different jobs?
No way!
To stay in one firm for more than 10 years doen't always mean good!
Just know how to work in one firm, that's it.
He at least knows something you DON'T know. Compare with him, you don't know 19 different firms than him.
Of course, you are better than him. but doesn't mean he is not better than you.
Last edited on Tue Nov 4th, 2008 01:29 am by stupid-architect-intern
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Phlustered
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 01:58 am |
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I think that someone who has worked in a firm for 10 years is a much better bet than someone who has worked for 10 firms in 10 years.
Even someone who has worked in 5 firms for 2 years each would be a better bet than the 10 jobs in 10 years guy.
Someone who has worked in 20 firms in 20 years has the benefit of experiencing 20 firms, yes. But why would an employer want to take a chance on someone who has that kind of history? A person who only lasts some months at each job isn't going to be worth spending time training, and it's not worth the upheaval in staff continuity in ongoing projects.
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stl-guy
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 02:35 am |
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BetterMousetrap wrote: I've been interviewing people all morning for a production manager job. It put me in a bad mood.
I understand the reasons that people pad their resumes, and I expect most people will do this a bit - or that at least there will be a fine line between showing all their accomplishments and credentials in their best light and exaggerating a little.
So if that describes you then don't feel that I'm targeting this at you.
What drives me crazy is people completely wasting my time with gross exaggeration and borderline lies.
For instance I had a guy this morning who had sent a cover letter saying he had "20+ years of experience" and that he had "led production teams and was in-house project manager on numerous large university buildings."
But it turns out that his 20 years of experience is made of more than 20 jobs at 20 different firms! He has a long, long history of working a few months then getting laid off and collecting unemployment for a few months, has had only had one job that lasted more than a year, and has never worked on a single CD set from beginning to end.
When I asked about the university buildings he brought out a 5-page 18" x 12" set for a renovation project on 4 identical classrooms that involved little more than new paint, brackets for AV equipment, and VCT tile patterns. When I asked about his experience with two of the 17 software applications he listed on his resume as being "proficient" with it turned out he didn't have any professional experience with either but "thought they seemed similar enough" to AutoCAD that it was ok to claim proficiency.
So please:
Respect the interviewer's time and the firm's needs. Don't pretend to be something you're not.
1. 20 jobs in 20 years is not 20 years of experience. Effectively that's the same one year of experience (except you didn't even last that long) over and over and over.
2. If you're "proficient" with the firm's software then I expect to be able to sit you down with a copy of the firm's standards and have you working on a project on your first day. I don't expect that it will take days or weeks of you doing tutorials or reading manuals before you're ready to draw anything. "Proficient" implies having knowledge and general competence.
3. If you claim to have management experience it isn't going to make anybody happy to find out that you meant that you managed to gather together all the sheets that everybody was working on and plot and staple 15 drawing sets all by yourself!
4. Ok, technically you've worked on "large university buildings". But save future potential interviewers some time and energy by making it clear these were small-scale interior renovations only and that you've never worked on any sections, framing drawings, structural or MEP coordination, etc.
If you had been more upfront with us we would have considered you for another position - one with a little more supervision. Maybe one where you could last longer than a few months and move up to an actual management level. But you just came across as overreaching at best, dishonest at worst.
We have an HR department. The initial screening actually starts with a very young professional PR person who has a talent to screen and spot who we may want to speak with further.
Probably the worst thing a company can do is to interview a candidate cold. We send our PR, HR and sometimes marketing staff to job fairs at top colleges and universities. We usually select 4-6 interns each year to work part-time or during summer breaks. The interns are paid if their school allows. Interns we select usually have a very good chance of being hired full-time with us after completing a successful internship.
Obviously the hiring process is somewhat different if we are looking for 10-15 years of experience.
The process continues either way, continues with our HR director who arranges interviews with the candidate and with directors and principals of our firm who might be interested in further interviewing the person.
We seldom hire on a first interview. It is about 50%/50% on a second interview. After that, we talk salary and benefits with the candidate. We then meet internally and then make a "go-no go' decision.
I must say, not all hires have met our expectations. Usually we impose some type of a probation period after hire, written or unwritten. Sometimes 90 days, sometimes 6 months. If the person does not meet expectations after that time or if we feel the hire was not a good fit, we act accordingly after that time period.
Last edited on Tue Nov 4th, 2008 03:05 am by stl-guy
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BetterMousetrap
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 03:44 am |
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For some context: we're a small firm - usually hovering around 10 people. We don't have hr staff. We're not hiring interns, but a production manager for a large project that is about to go into the CD phase. Candidates for the position are mainly experienced CAD drafters - not necessarily architects - with 6 to 10 years' experience.
I am conducting first-round interviews, with no intention of hiring after only a first interview.
I'm not expecting to find a perfect fit on a first interview, or to find that any candidate is flawless. I am expecting though that candidates will be somewhat more honest than what I experienced today.
I'll try to do some better screening by email and phone before inviting people to the office. Interviews take a lot of time, and that time is just a waste if the candidates aren't remotely qualified.
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stl-guy
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 04:45 am |
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BetterMousetrap wrote: For some context: we're a small firm - usually hovering around 10 people. We don't have hr staff. We're not hiring interns, but a production manager for a large project that is about to go into the CD phase. Candidates for the position are mainly experienced CAD drafters - not necessarily architects - with 6 to 10 years' experience.
I am conducting first-round interviews, with no intention of hiring after only a first interview.
I'm not expecting to find a perfect fit on a first interview, or to find that any candidate is flawless. I am expecting though that candidates will be somewhat more honest than what I experienced today.
I'll try to do some better screening by email and phone before inviting people to the office. Interviews take a lot of time, and that time is just a waste if the candidates aren't remotely qualified.
I owned a small business too. You can still screen first and then arrange interviews after hours.
Be candid. Have a look at the resume, portfolio or whatever. If the candidate does not fit, cut the interview.
Look at your watch and say, I'm sorry, I have to pick up my kid, or something like that.
I'm afraid I will need to cut our interview short.
Shake hands and say good bye and then say "If we are interested, we will contact you".
"We are however in the process of interviewing several other candidates. Economics as they are require that we select a candidate who we think will best meet our needs."
Then maybe say something like, "You might try contacting Joe Bow and Assoc. on 4th Street. I heard they might be hiring."
That is more than you need to say but a good way to end an interview.
If the guy calls back, just say, I'm sorry, we have filled that position.
Good luck to you though.
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brudgers
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 03:30 pm |
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BetterMousetrap wrote: For some context: we're a small firm - usually hovering around 10 people. We don't have hr staff. We're not hiring interns, but a production manager for a large project that is about to go into the CD phase. Candidates for the position are mainly experienced CAD drafters - not necessarily architects - with 6 to 10 years' experience.
I am conducting first-round interviews, with no intention of hiring after only a first interview.
I'm not expecting to find a perfect fit on a first interview, or to find that any candidate is flawless. I am expecting though that candidates will be somewhat more honest than what I experienced today.
I'll try to do some better screening by email and phone before inviting people to the office. Interviews take a lot of time, and that time is just a waste if the candidates aren't remotely qualified.
Since you're hiring for a specific project that's already well underway, then why are you concerned with finding a person with whose experience is tracking projects from start to finish?
If you need someone who can jump into the corral and grab the bull by the balls, then someone who worked in a stable corporate environment and was trained to work by the numbers is the last person you want.
You aren't looking for someone to train, your firm's lack of planning appears to have created a need for someone who can jump in with both feet.
It's time to sign a free-agent not look at the draft board.
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BetterMousetrap
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 03:46 pm |
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Thanks for the insight.
The project is a public building. Design phases were completed more than two years ago. The project went through multiple bond votes and some minor scaling-back passes and finally passed in October. In the meantime it's been on hold.
It's a very large project for our firm, so we need to staff up now that it's finally going into production. It's not that there's a lack of planning - the people who were involved in the design phases are all still here (including me) - but we couldn't afford to carry production staff that we need for a project of this scale during the years while we waited to see if the project would go forward. With this type of situation there's no telling when - or if - the project will ever go forward until the point when it actually does go forward.
We're looking for someone to manage the production of the CD set within the office. This person would be the Production Manager - not the Project Manager. What we're looking for isn't someone to track the whole project from start to finish. It's someone who can take direction from the Project Manager but manage the production of the CD set. The Project Manager can't do this entirely himself because he is involved in too many other smaller projects at present and is not in the office much of the time. This Production Manager would be managing a staff of 4-6 interns and CAD techs dedicated to this project. It would be helpful if they have some understanding of what would be expected in a set of this scale.
The CD phase of the project is slated to last about 8 months. It doesn't seem wise to hire someone to manage it who has an average tenure of about 6 months at a series of 19 jobs.
But regardless of whether we should or shouldn't hire a "free agent", or whether we displayed poor planning, my original point is about a frustration with people misrepresenting themselves.Last edited on Tue Nov 4th, 2008 04:00 pm by BetterMousetrap
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brudgers
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 04:06 pm |
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Why not redistribute some of the Project manager's little projects, and get that person back in the office more frequently?
If this is an unusual sort of project for your firm, it would appear to make sense to have it quaterbacked by a veteran. Particularly given the large investment at stake and the need for more substantial resources than the firm usually commits.
A new person isn't going to be able to play the office politics, know the limitations of junior staff, and the expectations of management. In my opinion, the PM is passing the buck and the possibility of poor performance is increased.
The firm is headed into unknown territory, it's time for managment to lead the way outside of the comfort zone.
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stupid-architect-intern
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 05:10 pm |
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I wonder how much is going to be the salary you would pay?
Of course, it is going to be the highest in the city, right? 
20 years experiences... 200k?
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BetterMousetrap
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 05:17 pm |
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brudgers:
All of that has been discussed, and the plan is to have the project manager in the office and involved in the project when possible, but he's tied up on other projects quite a lot right now. We also talked about the idea of having one of the others of us move into the pm role on that project, but the client is happy with the original project manager so it would be better not to make that switch.
We've done a number of projects of this scale before, but not in a couple years. In the past we've always staffed up for the CD phase and usually promoted somebody into this production captain role - but the pickings are slim within the firm right now - everybody's either already managing multiple projects or a little too entry-level.
All of us are very busy with other projects that are in various stages of completion (hence my annoyance with feeling that my time is being wasted by candidates far overstating their qualifications) - and all of us are out of the office a lot with those - and we're going to need somebody in the office to supervise and organize things there. In an ideal world we could juggle projects to bring one of us back to the office on a more regular basis - and that might be possible down the road - but it's not possible for a couple months at least.
There are definitely potential pitfalls in this plan, but nonetheless, that's the plan.Last edited on Tue Nov 4th, 2008 05:29 pm by BetterMousetrap
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BetterMousetrap
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 05:27 pm |
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stupid-architect-intern:
We're advertising for 6 to 10 years of experience. The salary is about average for the position in our region - though maybe lower than our few large competitors could offer, so no probably not the highest in the city. The initial response to our ads has been very high, probably because some other local firms have been laying off and there aren't too many advertised positions right now. We asked for salary requirements to be submitted with resume and cover, and - though many don't submit a number - the numbers we've received have all been in the ballpark of the salary we've budgeted.
I guess the implication of your posts is that you feel that somehow we're being condescending or arrogant in our expectations, and/or unreasonable in what we're offering. All I want is for people to present their qualifications honestly. As I said, the guy who prompted my annoyance yesterday morning might well have been a good fit for a more junior position - if he'd been honest about his level of experience.Last edited on Tue Nov 4th, 2008 05:29 pm by BetterMousetrap
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stupid-architect-intern
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 05:48 pm |
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That's why the title has "Senior Architect" or "Senior Project Architect".
Someone who has more technical experiences becomes "Senior"
Of course, they are very similar with "Junior Architect" job but they can do better job.
If you are trying to find "Manager" position, you even can find someone who just from college.
What I want to say is the responsibilities are different in these two positions.
I think you want to find more "Manager" person than "Architect" person.
And I think 20 years experiences person applied the wrong position, but it doesn't mean he is "Junior".
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i tect
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 06:25 pm |
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I think in this field ;as well as many others, qualifications are almost always over stated. Not just on resumes but also on RFQ's, RFP's and job positions.
Someone with average ability in reviewing the resumes of candidates would have spotted your concerns about the credentials and the process would never have gotten to the interview phase.
Maybe you are more upset with yourself because of your lack of vision in reviewing the resume prior to the actual interview.
Just a different approach.
Oh and by the way, how many jobs in my career have I applied for and gotten only to find out that the position prove to be less than what was presented to me.
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Coach
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 06:33 pm |
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i tect wrote: Oh and by the way, how many jobs in my career have I applied for and gotten only to find out that the position prove to be less than what was presented to me. Funny, I was thinking the same thing. It seems that employers overstate much more than applicants.
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BetterMousetrap
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 06:34 pm |
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stupid-architect-intern wrote:
That's why the title has "Senior Architect" or "Senior Project Architect".
Someone who has more technical experiences becomes "Senior"
Of course, they are very similar with "Junior Architect" job but they can do better job.
If you are trying to find "Manager" position, you even can find someone who just from college.
What I want to say is the responsibilities are different in these two positions.
I think you want to find more "Manager" person than "Architect" person.
And I think 20 years experiences person applied the wrong position, but it doesn't mean he is "Junior".
I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly. The title in the advertisement is "Production Manager". It goes on to state that we're seeking someone with 6-10 years experience in developing construction documents, relevant team leadership experience, blah blah blah....
We're not advertising for a Sr. Architect - or actually even any architect necessarily (many applicants are CAD techs and that would be fine with us if the person has the background for the job.)
I think you're saying that we're looking for too much experience? That we should consider someone with less experience but some management ability?
We don't think that a person straight out of college is suited for this job. It takes some experience with similar projects and knowing what goes into a CD set and a workable order for its production, and a good ability to coordinate, we think.
The guy with 20 years' experience would be in a "more junior" position because he doesn't have much supervisory experience and the CD sets he has worked on have been very small and limited in scope. That makes him "junior" in the staff of this particular project and firm. But it doesn't matter, as he won't get further consideration.Last edited on Tue Nov 4th, 2008 06:43 pm by BetterMousetrap
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BetterMousetrap
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 06:41 pm |
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i tect wrote:
I think in this field ;as well as many others, qualifications are almost always over stated. Not just on resumes but also on RFQ's, RFP's and job positions.
Someone with average ability in reviewing the resumes of candidates would have spotted your concerns about the credentials and the process would never have gotten to the interview phase.
Maybe you are more upset with yourself because of your lack of vision in reviewing the resume prior to the actual interview.
Just a different approach.
Oh and by the way, how many jobs in my career have I applied for and gotten only to find out that the position prove to be less than what was presented to me.
I see that a lot too. But this job is basically exactly as I've described it here, and in our ads. The benefits are pretty standard, the salary is competitive though not as high as one might find at a larger firm, and there's not much more to overstate. It's not a broad-brush schematic design job. It may or may not have long term potential for upward mobility in the firm. It reports to project managers and principals.
I think you're right that I should have noticed the lack of 20 years' worth of work history right away (the guy's cover letter said 20+ years, but the abbreviated resume he sent with it listed just his most recent jobs with no dates, so I assumed these were each many years longer than they were. Of course I think this is what he intended for us to assume...)
But I also think he grossly exaggerated. In his cover letter he states that he "led production teams and was in-house project manager on numerous large university buildings." That's beyond slight exaggeration and resume padding.
I've interviewed most of the people we've hired in the past 4 years, and done a reasonably job at it I guess, as it's become solely my responsibility at this point (though those who get a 2nd interview usually meet with 3 or 4 of us together.) I'm not claiming to be any expert. I was just shocked at the level of overstatement of qualifications on some of the stuff we received in this round. Maybe it's the level of desperation of the job situation these days. I don't know.
Thanks for all the perspectives.Last edited on Tue Nov 4th, 2008 07:24 pm by BetterMousetrap
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stupid-architect-intern
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 06:47 pm |
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That is what I said before.
You posted the production "Manager" position and he applied the wrong position.
But you can not say he is "Junior" and he is not honest.
His background just doesn't match with your position.
If some "Star Architect" who has more than 20 years experiences apply your position, I think you will also say they are "Junior".
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BetterMousetrap
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 06:55 pm |
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[qoute]If some "Star Architect" who has more than 20 years experiences apply your position, I think you will also say they are "Junior".[/qoute]
Why would I say that?
You make it sound like I think nobody's good enough and that all of them don't have enough experience. I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from. I don't think I have the tone of thinking that everybody applying for a job is somehow inferior. If I am coming across as having that tone then it is not intended. We've hired lots of good people in the past and I'm sure we'll find somebody this time too.
I doubt that "some star architect" would apply for this job - but if they did then I'd evaluate them based on familiarity with the project type, and past experience with production of CD sets and managing a small staff.
So you think that it is honest of the guy to say he has "led production teams and was in-house project manager on numerous large university buildings" when in actuality he hasn't worked on larger than a 5-page set and his leadership was all in issues related to plotting? (these are the things he told me and showed me in the interview - not assumptions on my part.) And you think it's not dishonest to list yourself as proficient in a bunch of software that you've never used? It's interesting that you feel that was just a mistake on his part and not deception. I'm trying to see it your way...Last edited on Tue Nov 4th, 2008 07:21 pm by BetterMousetrap
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stupid-architect-intern
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 07:37 pm |
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It is possible he said lie to you on the interview. (To get a job)
And he is not honest in some part. (Decorate him as a BIG man)
You should say that part. That's it. (Say just not match your position)
BUT, you tried to make his entire architectural life as a waste time.
Nobody can say one specific person's entire career is a waste time.
Are you sure his 20 years of time is Junior?
I thought it just doesn't match each other's expectation, but now I think you even try to make him bad from view of your way.
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Spellcaster
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 08:04 pm |
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If the facts are as stated (20 jobs in 20 years, many lasting only months and a history of lasting only several months at most) then it sounds like it's almost certainly one of those people who habitually works long enough to qualify for unemployment, then collects unemployment until eligibility runs out, then repeats this. I've worked with a number of those people over the years, some who even deliberately slack off and pick fights the moment they've put in enough time to be re-eligible for unemployment, in order to get terminated. If this is one of those guys then don't even waste your time mulling this situation over - you're in the right to be annoyed and you shouldn't consider him at all.
On the other hand there are some folks out there who become itinerant cad drafters, traveling from big project to big project. As you say, your firm doesn't do these types of projects regularly - just off and on and you staff up for them. That means you probably staff down afterward, like all the similar mid-sized firms do. Does this guy's 20 jobs have a bunch of repeats with the same firms? That could make him a better gamble. It means he's just following the big projects around town. (In which case you should also be able to check with those other firms for decent references.)
I have to agree that 20 jobs, each of several months' duration, over the course of 20 years, don't usually add up to nearly the same thing as a few jobs each of a few years' duration over the same 20 years.
And in some folks I've worked with I do agree that it can very well all add up to nothing more than what you'd expect of an entry level drafter or intern or somebody with a year or so of experience - especially if they're the unemployment-chaser types.
But in others it really does add up to more than that, if they've taken away new skills and knowledge from each job.
I'd say, as others have, just try to do a better job screening before you bring people into the office.
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skyhook
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Posted: Tue Nov 4th, 2008 08:36 pm |
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maybe stupidarch was the interviewee ?
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RK
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