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King
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Posted: Tue Nov 18th, 2008 10:03 pm |
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| . Last edited on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 10:06 pm by King
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pgharchintern
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 02:46 am |
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| Well for some reason I can't respond in the other forum. The website doesn't recognize me logging in...weird.
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tropical-hut
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 04:16 am |
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where are the people ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOjBM283zJ4&feature=related
the plaza is a perfect venue for special events like this. so it's not lifeless after all.
people who love Kahn's design visit to appreciate salk the way it is, not caring
whether there's a lot of people or not and whether there are trees in the plaza or
not. the bottom line is salk institute where proud of their building, and this project
was one of Kahn greatest achievement. if i'm not mistaken one guy who actually
got involved with this project during the design loves the building so much. he still
take residence in that institute.
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Mation
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 02:06 pm |
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brudgers wrote: rudoneyet wrote: People do use it. I think it's the total effect that makes it work. It is a research center and everytime I've been there it's been sparsely populated if at all but it's a contemplative place and setting and that is what I think Kahn was trying to achieve. Aall of the other side of those tilt-ups are glass with private views (you don't have your neighbor gawking at you) and I'm sure many a scientist has stared out in reverie and possibly has had their intuition stimulated by the whole serene scene. I'm sure at times someone is out there tossing a frisbee or a ball for their dog but for the most part it's a place to unwind and I guess, to think.
It's pure facadism, in my opinion. All the meaningful aspects of life must take place elsewhere out of necessity.
The proof is in the pudding (not your imagination). People don't stay in the space because it's scale and detailing is inhumane for the sake of a mere image.
Collaboration and the exchange of ideas are the lifeblood of a scientific community, not uniterupted zazen.
There's no intimacy and no chance that people will hangout long enough to bounce ideas off each other.
Building 20 was arguably one of the most productive scientific buildings ever built. It was designed to efficiently house people, not express some architect's misconception of the scientific process.
The only people who use the photograph as a measure of architectural greatness are architects and architecture students.
It's one reason why people think we're fools.
Brudgers, I think you're being overly critical of the design based on that single photo. Even though the photo is iconic, no one would think that it accurately depicts the project at any given time. You never answered the question asked earlier: have you been there?
By your rationale, each of the buildings on your website are lifeless as well, since there isn't a single person in any of the building photos.
Last edited on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 02:20 pm by Mation
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King
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 02:54 pm |
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I am a fan of Kahn, and have seen some of his works in person. Salk IMO is his greatest work.
Salk is my favor. The plaza with the view to the Pacific is the soul of the project.
Kimbell is great in terms of great natural light for viewing art.
Yale British Art has a great interior, but its exterior is a bit boring.
Yale Art Gallery is too dark inside.
Newton Med. Bldg. is out of scale & dull.
I have only seen his private residences thru pictures, but they all look very dim inside.
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brudgers
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 03:37 pm |
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Mation wrote: Brudgers, I think you're being overly critical of the design based on that single photo. Even though the photo is iconic, no one would think that it accurately depicts the project at any given time. You never answered the question asked earlier: have you been there?
By your rationale, each of the buildings on your website are lifeless as well, since there isn't a single person in any of the building photos.
By plopping a monumental shadeless void in the middle of the parti, he impeded the basic scientific functions of the building.
From a primary functional standpoint it reduces the likelihood of chance intellectual exchanges between the occupants of the two buildings it divides. Lonely contemplation in the outdoors is not the lifeblood of scientific progress.
I am certain that if I was there, I would say "Wow! that's really cool." I said the same thing about Moore's Piazza D'Italia...but it was still a clusterfck.
The measure of architecture is not "what's cool." And that's why Kahn's space is so bad. It's useless other than for photographs and donar fundraisers.
Nobody in their right mind would claim that I'm an ideal architect...and I've certainly worked on plenty of lifeless projects...I once did a fkn golf cart barn!
I always assumed that you were sophisticated enough to recognize that Ad hominem is hardly is a defense of the building.
I didn't base my critique on a single photo. I used the video as evidence. I offered a counter example of a scientific building. And of course, it's not as if I never analized Kahn while in school...my mentor the late David Crane, FAIA taught with him at Penn.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/obituaries/articles/2005/06/08/david_a_crane_architect_helped_reshape_boston_districts/
Last edited on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 03:58 pm by brudgers
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King
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 04:03 pm |
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I guess a market full of people would be considered good architecture.
Salk is on a secluded cliff with 1200 scientists on staff. You think they have time sitting in the plaza? I went there during Christmas, and I saw people working there. That part of San Diego is not populated, and guests are not allowed to go in unless you climbed over the gate like I did.
The purpose of the plaza is to inspire, not to host event!
Attached Image (viewed 142 times):
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brudgers
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 04:14 pm |
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King wrote: I guess a market full of people would be considered good architecture. Not just better architecture, but healthier too. Look at all those fresh veggies.
Salk is on a secluded cliff with 1200 scientists on staff. You think they have time sitting in the plaza? I went there during Christmas, and I saw people working there. That part of San Diego is not populated,
That just makes it worse. Instead of creating an urban space, here's another helping of more-o-da-same. and guests are not allowed to go in unless you climbed over the gate like I did. Like I noted earlier, architecture students on pilgramige think it's great. The purpose of the plaza is to inspire, not to host event!
It's supposed to be a workplace not a monastary...though a cloister would definately be an improvement.
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LIK
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 04:22 pm |
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brudgers wrote: By plopping a monumental shadeless void in the middle of the parti, he impeded the basic scientific functions of the building.
From a primary functional standpoint it reduces the likelihood of chance intellectual exchanges between the occupants of the two buildings it divides. Lonely contemplation in the outdoors is not the lifeblood of scientific progress.
I am certain that if I was there, I would say "Wow! that's really cool." I said the same thing about Moore's Piazza D'Italia...but it was still a clusterfck.
The measure of architecture is not "what's cool." And that's why Kahn's space is so bad. It's useless other than for photographs and donar fundraisers.
Nobody in their right mind would claim that I'm an ideal architect...and I've certainly worked on plenty of lifeless projects...I once did a fkn golf cart barn!
I always assumed that you were sophisticated enough to recognize that Ad hominem is hardly is a defense of the building.
I didn't base my critique on a single photo. I used the video as evidence. I offered a counter example of a scientific building. And of course, it's not as if I never analized Kahn while in school...my mentor the late David Crane, FAIA taught with him at Penn.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/obituaries/articles/2005/06/08/david_a_crane_architect_helped_reshape_boston_districts/
spaces don't alway need to be occupied to be "ideal," because not all malls are ideal.
I asked scientists who works there and they all love the campus. They actually enjoys the fact that the plaza is never very crowded. Its a great space to relax and clear their exhausted heads in between research & lab experiments.
perhaps you shouldn't jump to conclusion w/o physically experience the place or speak to the occupants. It only makes you sound clueless and ignorant.
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brudgers
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 04:54 pm |
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Who wouldn't like a well paying indoor job with a view of the Pacific Ocean?
That's hardly a defense of an architectural intervention.
I'd love to read these interviews. Can you send me a link?
Maybe keeping people from chance conversations prevents them from discussing their work:
http://www.10news.com/news/821126/detail.html
Last edited on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 05:03 pm by brudgers
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tropical-hut
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 05:15 pm |
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[img]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:63tBmNEO1nWsmM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Lever_House_by_David_Shankbone.jpg/450px-Lever_House_by_David_Shankbone.jpg[/img]
Plaza in NYC - Lever House (background) , great plaza and people hang out all day. But not all buildings/plaza should be treated the same, SALK is a place where people conduct experiments and the plaza is a place for them to unwind.
So every building /plaza should have their own purpose.
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Mation
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 05:25 pm |
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brudgers wrote: Mation wrote: Brudgers, I think you're being overly critical of the design based on that single photo. Even though the photo is iconic, no one would think that it accurately depicts the project at any given time. You never answered the question asked earlier: have you been there?
By your rationale, each of the buildings on your website are lifeless as well, since there isn't a single person in any of the building photos.
By plopping a monumental shadeless void in the middle of the parti, he impeded the basic scientific functions of the building.
From a primary functional standpoint it reduces the likelihood of chance intellectual exchanges between the occupants of the two buildings it divides. Lonely contemplation in the outdoors is not the lifeblood of scientific progress.
I am certain that if I was there, I would say "Wow! that's really cool." I said the same thing about Moore's Piazza D'Italia...but it was still a clusterfck.
The measure of architecture is not "what's cool." And that's why Kahn's space is so bad. It's useless other than for photographs and donar fundraisers.
Nobody in their right mind would claim that I'm an ideal architect...and I've certainly worked on plenty of lifeless projects...I once did a fkn golf cart barn!
I always assumed that you were sophisticated enough to recognize that Ad hominem is hardly is a defense of the building.
I didn't base my critique on a single photo. I used the video as evidence. I offered a counter example of a scientific building. And of course, it's not as if I never analized Kahn while in school...my mentor the late David Crane, FAIA taught with him at Penn.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/obituaries/articles/2005/06/08/david_a_crane_architect_helped_reshape_boston_districts/
Your sentence above beginning with "By plopping..." IS a valid criticism to make from a distance. However, criticizing the livelihood of a project you have never visited seems invalid, and seeing a video and the fact that your mentor once taught with Kahn doesn't help, in my opinion.
Again, your first comment in the thread suggested that the project was lacking because there were no people in the photo, and you went on to say that the project was lifeless. I see that as an asenine suggestion, since as has been pointed out by others, most architectural photos don't contain people, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
The mention of your work was not ad hominem, but rather the contrary, as I was obviously making the point that it is common that architectural photos not contain people, and thus cannot be used as a measure of the quality of the space. Hell, I compared your work, or at least the documentation of it, to Kahn's, in a very indirect way. Most people wouldn't consider that a personal attack. For the sake of comparison, I referenced your work because I don't recall you ever saying anything positive about any particular projects by others. You very well may have, but I didn't recall any.
The ironic thing is that I'm not a huge fan of the Salk Institute. Rather, I was criticizing your critique of the building. Ha ha. I've been to the Salk and I think the site is amazing and it's the sort of project where the most important thing is to not f*ck up the site. I think it's a nice composition of buildings, but not one of my favorite Kahn projects.
To get the post back on track, I think that an ideal architect is both a practitioner and a theorist. I think that the best architects work to improve the built environment as well as the world of academia, without focusing exclusively on either of the two. In addition to office work, I think that architects should at least sit on school crits and lecture on a regular basis. Acting as a visiting instructor is the ideal way to give back to the future of the profession, especially when the students are inspired to expand the boundaries of architecture and think more conceptually and theoretically than can be done in an office.
I build and I teach, though I'm far from being ideal at either. To name a few current celebrity architects who I think are great at doing both, I would include: Rafael Moneo, Rem Koolhaas, and Herzog & De Meuron.
Brudgers, are there any current architects that you would consider anywhere near ideal?
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LIK
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 05:38 pm |
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brudgers wrote: Who wouldn't like a well paying indoor job with a view of the Pacific Ocean? obviously you don't, considering all your bitching and moaning.
That's hardly a defense of an architectural intervention.
not defending the place, was merely amplifying your ignorance. I'd love to read these interviews. Can you send me a link? I have been there a number of times and I always ask the campus locals at random out of curiosity. Maybe keeping people from chance conversations prevents them from discussing their work:
http://www.10news.com/news/821126/detail.html get real, if you are human, you are benefiting from the abuse of animal one way or another. drugs and medical treatment does not drop out of thin air, nor does the steak you had for dinner last night.
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Mr. 384
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 06:40 pm |
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| This is a topic that can be discussed for ages which is why I love it. In my humble opinion the idea of the "ideal" architect has it ties to what each person (architect or not) believes is important in architecture (or what it is). If the meaning and spirit of a building is are of great importance than your "ideal" architect might be someone like Daniel Libeskind (depending on whether you believe he actually injects meaning into his buildings). If the importance is placed on how well a building works within its program than Frank Gehry might not be your man (at least according to John Silber, "Architecture of the Absurd"). In my opinion it is about the question of architecture, the owner's requirments, what the architecture is striving for and how it is applied in each situation. The "ideal" architect then takes the question and situation to create the most appropriate solution or solutions. He or she creates based on what they believe. Now what he/she creates is up to debate. That's where the fun begins and the beauty of human nature comes to life because no matter what we all see things just a tad bit differently. Also the point made by Mation about the "ideal" architect being a practioner and theorist is very important. An "ideal" architect can walk the fine line between practice and theory since they are both equally important to the profession. So with that said may this great debate continue!....384
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brudgers
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 06:53 pm |
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Mation wrote:
Your sentence above beginning with "By plopping..." IS a valid criticism to make from a distance. However, criticizing the livelihood of a project you have never visited seems invalid, and seeing a video and the fact that your mentor once taught with Kahn doesn't help, in my opinion.
Again, your first comment in the thread suggested that the project was lacking because there were no people in the photo, and you went on to say that the project was lifeless. I see that as an asenine suggestion, since as has been pointed out by others, most architectural photos don't contain people, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
The mention of your work was not ad hominem, but rather the contrary, as I was obviously making the point that it is common that architectural photos not contain people, and thus cannot be used as a measure of the quality of the space. Hell, I compared your work, or at least the documentation of it, to Kahn's, in a very indirect way. Most people wouldn't consider that a personal attack. For the sake of comparison, I referenced your work because I don't recall you ever saying anything positive about any particular projects by others. You very well may have, but I didn't recall any.
The ironic thing is that I'm not a huge fan of the Salk Institute. Rather, I was criticizing your critique of the building. Ha ha. I've been to the Salk and I think the site is amazing and it's the sort of project where the most important thing is to not f*ck up the site. I think it's a nice composition of buildings, but not one of my favorite Kahn projects.
To get the post back on track, I think that an ideal architect is both a practitioner and a theorist. I think that the best architects work to improve the built environment as well as the world of academia, without focusing exclusively on either of the two. In addition to office work, I think that architects should at least sit on school crits and lecture on a regular basis. Acting as a visiting instructor is the ideal way to give back to the future of the profession, especially when the students are inspired to expand the boundaries of architecture and think more conceptually and theoretically than can be done in an office.
I build and I teach, though I'm far from being ideal at either. To name a few current celebrity architects who I think are great at doing both, I would include: Rafael Moneo, Rem Koolhaas, and Herzog & De Meuron.
Brudgers, are there any current architects that you would consider anywhere near ideal?
I'm too much of a realist to subscribe to hold platonic expectations of actual people.
The site is amazing, that's not to Kahn's credit. I tend to believe that architectural excellence is more about what one does with less, rather than more.
In my opinion, being cool isn't important.
Again, watch the video. And ask why - when there are 1200 employees at Salk - on a beautiful day, none are hanging in the plaza?
I don't believe in the anomalous suspension of the basic dimensional and psychological aspects of human existence and interaction due to the presence of Louis Kahn's executed designs.
Surely you're savvey enough to realize that I didn't criticize the photo or its lack of people. It's the lack of people in the actual plaza (which I inferred from the photo based upon the scale and detail it depicts and my understanding of human behaviour). And remember it was criticized against a standard of the "ideal."
One can even try it at home:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fieldwork-Melnik.jpg
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King
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 07:52 pm |
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| Wow Salk with a busy market in the plaza is a lot better than now... Attached Image (viewed 102 times):
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LIK
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 09:09 pm |
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King wrote: Wow Salk with a busy market in the plaza is a lot better than now...
LOL
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brudgers
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 09:15 pm |
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LIK wrote: King wrote: Wow Salk with a busy market in the plaza is a lot better than now...
LOL
Even with all those people, nobody wants to sit on the "benches."
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King
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 09:16 pm |
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brudgers wrote: LIK wrote: King wrote: Wow Salk with a busy market in the plaza is a lot better than now...
LOL
Even with all those people, nobody wants to sit on the "benches."
Hahahaha!!! very good!!!
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Mation
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 11:13 pm |
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brudgers wrote: Mation wrote:
Your sentence above beginning with "By plopping..." IS a valid criticism to make from a distance. However, criticizing the livelihood of a project you have never visited seems invalid, and seeing a video and the fact that your mentor once taught with Kahn doesn't help, in my opinion.
Again, your first comment in the thread suggested that the project was lacking because there were no people in the photo, and you went on to say that the project was lifeless. I see that as an asenine suggestion, since as has been pointed out by others, most architectural photos don't contain people, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
The mention of your work was not ad hominem, but rather the contrary, as I was obviously making the point that it is common that architectural photos not contain people, and thus cannot be used as a measure of the quality of the space. Hell, I compared your work, or at least the documentation of it, to Kahn's, in a very indirect way. Most people wouldn't consider that a personal attack. For the sake of comparison, I referenced your work because I don't recall you ever saying anything positive about any particular projects by others. You very well may have, but I didn't recall any.
The ironic thing is that I'm not a huge fan of the Salk Institute. Rather, I was criticizing your critique of the building. Ha ha. I've been to the Salk and I think the site is amazing and it's the sort of project where the most important thing is to not f*ck up the site. I think it's a nice composition of buildings, but not one of my favorite Kahn projects.
To get the post back on track, I think that an ideal architect is both a practitioner and a theorist. I think that the best architects work to improve the built environment as well as the world of academia, without focusing exclusively on either of the two. In addition to office work, I think that architects should at least sit on school crits and lecture on a regular basis. Acting as a visiting instructor is the ideal way to give back to the future of the profession, especially when the students are inspired to expand the boundaries of architecture and think more conceptually and theoretically than can be done in an office.
I build and I teach, though I'm far from being ideal at either. To name a few current celebrity architects who I think are great at doing both, I would include: Rafael Moneo, Rem Koolhaas, and Herzog & De Meuron.
Brudgers, are there any current architects that you would consider anywhere near ideal?
I'm too much of a realist to subscribe to hold platonic expectations of actual people.
The site is amazing, that's not to Kahn's credit. I tend to believe that architectural excellence is more about what one does with less, rather than more.
That's exactly what I was saying.
In my opinion, being cool isn't important.
I never said anything about "cool" being important, or anything about being cool at all. Now that I think of it though, being cool might help in getting better employees and handling client relations.
Again, watch the video. And ask why - when there are 1200 employees at Salk - on a beautiful day, none are hanging in the plaza?
I agree with some of the comments earlier which state that the plaza doesn't need to be full of people to be successful anyway. It's more like another facade, which is what Barragan argued to Kahn, as I recall.
I don't believe in the anomalous suspension of the basic dimensional and psychological aspects of human existence and interaction due to the presence of Louis Kahn's executed designs.
Is this directed at me? I didn't give Kahn any breaks at all for being Kahn. I said that I wasn't a huge fan of the Salk. They're very nice buildings on a great site, but not "ideal" in my opinion.
Surely you're savvey enough to realize that I didn't criticize the photo or its lack of people. It's the lack of people in the actual plaza (which I inferred from the photo based upon the scale and detail it depicts and my understanding of human behaviour). And remember it was criticized against a standard of the "ideal."
Fair enough. Against the standard of "ideal," one can be quite critical. I'll give you that.
One can even try it at home:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fieldwork-Melnik.jpg
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brudgers
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 12:05 am |
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Mation wrote: I agree with some of the comments earlier which state that the plaza doesn't need to be full of people to be successful anyway. It's more like another facade, which is what Barragan argued to Kahn, as I recall.
BTW, someone in this thread already accused Kahn of "pure facadism."
Being a bit slow, I'm still failing to see what is so successful about the "plaza."
[Since it is apparently not intended for people, scare quotes are in order...being that a plaza is normally designed for people].
In my opinion, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that bisecting a large walking surface with a trip hazard ain't such a great idea. Indeed an average facilities engineer can do so...architects however appear to be another matter.
Last edited on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 12:05 am by brudgers
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rudoneyet
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 03:16 am |
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"bisecting a large walking surface with a trip hazard ain't such a great idea."
Ahh, always the pragmatist, to the bitter end.
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tropical-hut
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 04:58 am |
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see file attachment :
i tried adding some trees, your thoughts....is it better ? it seems like an ordinary plaza with people shopping...
the trees become the focal point and blocking the view...
Attachment: salk.pdf (Downloaded 19 times) Last edited on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 05:29 am by tropical-hut
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RK
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 01:51 pm |
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tropical-hut wrote: see file attachment :
i tried adding some trees, your thoughts....is it better ? it seems like an ordinary plaza with people shopping...
the trees become the focal point and blocking the view...
I feel like drinking a margarita in the plaza now. 
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brudgers
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 02:31 pm |
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tropical-hut wrote: see file attachment :
i tried adding some trees, your thoughts....is it better ? it seems like an ordinary plaza with people shopping...
the trees become the focal point and blocking the view...
In this scheme, the benches are repurposed as flexible display surfaces for the vendors' trinkets, wares, a | | |
