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graspin
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | السبت يوليو 5th, 2008 |
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كتب: الجمعة نوفمبر 14th, 2008 09:20 pm |
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Is it just me, or does the studying of 'structures' just seem pointless and obtuse to the average day-to-day activities of an architect?
i understand that we should know the general concepts of forces and equilibrium. and i'll even concede that it's helpful to know how to correctly size beams. but locating the centroidial axis and finding the moment of inertia? calculating shear? determine the size and length of welds? does this mean we can skip the structural engineer and pocket his fee? no...because HE is required to confirm these calculations. it's not like we double check his calculation sheets (if he even provides them) or sit down and take the 10 minutes on site for each weld to ensure it correctly sized. for that kind of knowledge i'd expect to get paid more than an architect.
i feel like my life is being stolen from me while studying this sh!t. lol.
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Sun & Cloud
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | الثلاثا نوفمبر 4th, 2008 |
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كتب: الجمعة نوفمبر 14th, 2008 09:52 pm |
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| Agree....
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graspin
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | السبت يوليو 5th, 2008 |
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| عدد المواضيع: | 488 |
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كتب: الجمعة نوفمبر 14th, 2008 10:00 pm |
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i know that structural engineers were not asked about document A201. i know that a mechanical engineering exam doesn't require them to know about stair design. and electrical engineers are rarely asked to identify the doric or ionic column structures.
so what gives? is it just more crap to pile on our plates? protectionism from the old-timers in the profession?
اخر تعديل في الجمعة نوفمبر 14th, 2008 10:01 pm بواسطة graspin
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QUIKSILVER
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | الجمعة مارس 10th, 2006 |
| الموقع: | Land Of Oppurtunity, USA |
| عدد المواضيع: | 1369 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | Optimistic individual whom believes that Failure teaches Success!!!!.... |
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كتب: الجمعة نوفمبر 14th, 2008 11:30 pm |
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graspin wrote: i know that structural engineers were not asked about document A201. i know that a mechanical engineering exam doesn't require them to know about stair design. and electrical engineers are rarely asked to identify the doric or ionic column structures. -- ALL GOOD POINTS..
so what gives? is it just more crap to pile on our plates? --YUP, IT IS.. protectionism from the old-timers in the profession?
These are all valid points...
However, you do need to understand that being in an architects position, is also known as being the 'Jack of all trades' ...meaning that we MUST know 'generally' how to interpret the instruments of the other trades involved in a project...especially when they're contracted directly with us (the architect).
After having takin the exam already.....I know that the Calc's are really not the MEAT of the exam (maybe 20-30%)....and as you probably already know, it's a mixture of understanding the concepts and the calc's....etc. So I recommend that you NOT dwell on the calc's yet...and just focus on concepts, and go back to the calc's once the concepts are understood...
Generally, I'm in agreement with you that this is alot of info to know in order to be a licensed architect...but you also have to remember that these exams are testing for minimum competence in protecting the public's health, safety, and welfare....and there is a bit of a reason behind the fact that NCARB might be looking for those of us that CAN understand this information to a degree, since ultimately...for the most part (about 70-80% of the time), it WOULD BE on our (the architect's) shoulders to control his/ her consultants, and therefore somewhat understand his/ her consultant's instruments (i.e. drawings, calc's, etc.), and be alerted if he/ she finds something critically wrong which could affect the future of the project...and the well being of the client.
Ultimately, I think we just need to bite the bullet, and absorb what we need to, in order to pass these idiotic exams...
I dunno, maybe I'm just blowing a bunch of hot air.....but this is what I believe based on the exams I've taken thus far......
Just my 2 cents,
Q..
اخر تعديل في الجمعة نوفمبر 14th, 2008 11:46 pm بواسطة QUIKSILVER
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flats
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | الثلاثا يوليو 10th, 2007 |
| الموقع: | Cleveland, Ohio USA |
| عدد المواضيع: | 518 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | PD, GS, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | In Sicily, women are more dangerous than shotguns. |
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كتب: الجمعة نوفمبر 14th, 2008 11:42 pm |
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Come on graspin, are you telling me you don't have a standard 40' high retaining wall detail in your standard library? 
In the rare chance we do a residence, we will design a beam in the basement or a hip rafter. But that's about it. Otherwise, we have Mr. Owner hire Mr. Structural Engineer. 
QUIKSILVER does make some points though. My last project, I ran out of red ink marking up the final structural review set. I get a little testy when they design a beam that extends 12" below my finish ceiling when I told them a million times to resize the beam.  I understand efficiency, but they often have tunnel vision when it comes to design or coordinating with the other disciplines. Sorry for going off on a mini-rant.
Best of luck in your GS studies. I'm there with you.
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QUIKSILVER
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | الجمعة مارس 10th, 2006 |
| الموقع: | Land Of Oppurtunity, USA |
| عدد المواضيع: | 1369 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | Optimistic individual whom believes that Failure teaches Success!!!!.... |
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كتب: الجمعة نوفمبر 14th, 2008 11:52 pm |
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flats wrote: <snip>
QUIKSILVER does make some points though.... <snip>
I'm going to assume that you mean 'good points'.....
Cheers,
Q..
اخر تعديل في الجمعة نوفمبر 14th, 2008 11:53 pm بواسطة QUIKSILVER
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flats
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | الثلاثا يوليو 10th, 2007 |
| الموقع: | Cleveland, Ohio USA |
| عدد المواضيع: | 518 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | PD, GS, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | In Sicily, women are more dangerous than shotguns. |
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كتب: الجمعة نوفمبر 14th, 2008 11:59 pm |
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QUIKSILVER wrote: flats wrote: <snip>
QUIKSILVER does make some points though.... <snip>
I'm going to assume that you mean 'good points'.....
Cheers,
Q..
As a wise person once said, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while."
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skyhook
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | السبت مارس 15th, 2008 |
| الموقع: | BT Or Bust |
| عدد المواضيع: | 1021 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP | | Describes Me: | support where beam or wall not available |
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كتب: السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 12:04 am |
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Truthfully, passing GS was one of the more satisfying moments in my life, if for no other reason the ritualistic, frenzied burning of the study material...such clutter.
My engineers' hate it when I question their calcs now , they say things like , "yeah , that kaplan book could have saved me thousands in tuition costs !"
اخر تعديل في السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 12:04 am بواسطة skyhook
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QUIKSILVER
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | الجمعة مارس 10th, 2006 |
| الموقع: | Land Of Oppurtunity, USA |
| عدد المواضيع: | 1369 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | Optimistic individual whom believes that Failure teaches Success!!!!.... |
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كتب: السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 12:10 am |
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flats wrote: QUIKSILVER wrote: flats wrote: <snip>
QUIKSILVER does make some points though.... <snip>
I'm going to assume that you mean 'good points'.....
Cheers,
Q..
As a wise person once said, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while."
That's just too cute...cheers......lol.
Q..
اخر تعديل في السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 12:10 am بواسطة QUIKSILVER
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QUIKSILVER
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | الجمعة مارس 10th, 2006 |
| الموقع: | Land Of Oppurtunity, USA |
| عدد المواضيع: | 1369 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | Optimistic individual whom believes that Failure teaches Success!!!!.... |
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كتب: السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 12:12 am |
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skyhook wrote: Truthfully, passing GS was one of the more satisfying moments in my life, if for no other reason the ritualistic, frenzied burning of the study material...such clutter.
My engineers' hate it when I question their calcs now , they say things like , "yeah , that kaplan book could have saved me thousands in tuition costs !"
My point exactly.....
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skyhook
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | السبت مارس 15th, 2008 |
| الموقع: | BT Or Bust |
| عدد المواضيع: | 1021 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP | | Describes Me: | support where beam or wall not available |
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كتب: السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 01:00 am |
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| ...add engineer quote - laced with sarcasm
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subgenius
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | الجمعة يونيو 8th, 2007 |
| الموقع: | Atlanta, Georgia USA |
| عدد المواضيع: | 63 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, ME, BD/MM, CD | | Exams Passed: | PD, ME, BD/MM, CD | | Describes Me: | |
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كتب: السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 02:38 pm |
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Yes, it is just you. I am surprised to see someone during this century use the term "obtuse". Nevertheless, i see others use the old "i never check the engineer's work". Unfortunately, you should be using this knowledge before the design even gets to the engineer. if you ever want to get off of doing details for someone else you had better be able to understand what being an Architect really means....or just be content with being a drafter. The same concept applies to the electrical, mechanical, and construction issues. You must also complain about construction details? why bother? just let the contractor put in what and how he feels is necessary? Last time i checked my day at the office was more than just coming up with a pretty picture for a magazine. This whining is why our profession has lost more and more relevance and resposibility over the past years.
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MACVILLE
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | الاربعا يوليو 19th, 2006 |
| الموقع: | Illinois USA |
| عدد المواضيع: | 159 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | Done Done Done! |
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كتب: السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 03:02 pm |
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No it's not JUST you graspin!
This exam is tough. Anyone who has ACTUALLY taken and or passed it KNOWS that. I've been in practice for 8+ years and YES, I do a ton of details and I do check MPE and Struct drawings......BUT nothing on the GS exam has ever been in ONE of MY real life applications.
Please don't criticize those voicing frustration over this or any of the ARE exams. Perhaps you won't be so quick to judge once YOU'VE taken the exam.
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skyhook
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | السبت مارس 15th, 2008 |
| الموقع: | BT Or Bust |
| عدد المواضيع: | 1021 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP | | Describes Me: | support where beam or wall not available |
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كتب: السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 04:20 pm |
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subgenius wrote: Yes, it is just you. I am surprised to see someone during this century use the term "obtuse". Nevertheless, i see others use the old "i never check the engineer's work". Unfortunately, you should be using this knowledge before the design even gets to the engineer. if you ever want to get off of doing details for someone else you had better be able to understand what being an Architect really means....or just be content with being a drafter. The same concept applies to the electrical, mechanical, and construction issues. You must also complain about construction details? why bother? just let the contractor put in what and how he feels is necessary? Last time i checked my day at the office was more than just coming up with a pretty picture for a magazine. This whining is why our profession has lost more and more relevance and resposibility over the past years.
encouragement (plural encouragements)
- The act of encouraging; incitement to action or to practice; as, the encouragement of youth in generosity.
All generous encouragement of arts. -Otway.
- That which serves to incite, support, promote, or advance, as favor, countenance, reward, etc.; incentive; increase of confidence; as, the fine arts find little encouragement among a rude people.
To think of his paternal care, Is a most sweet encouragement to prayer. -Byron.
Suggestion to Sub: : go practice with a houseplant or a puppy, and then come back and try again.
اخر تعديل في السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 04:47 pm بواسطة skyhook
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graspin
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | السبت يوليو 5th, 2008 |
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كتب: السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 05:38 pm |
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subgenius wrote: Yes, it is just you. I am surprised to see someone during this century use the term "obtuse". Nevertheless, i see others use the old "i never check the engineer's work". Unfortunately, you should be using this knowledge before the design even gets to the engineer. if you ever want to get off of doing details for someone else you had better be able to understand what being an Architect really means....or just be content with being a drafter. The same concept applies to the electrical, mechanical, and construction issues. You must also complain about construction details? why bother? just let the contractor put in what and how he feels is necessary? Last time i checked my day at the office was more than just coming up with a pretty picture for a magazine. This whining is why our profession has lost more and more relevance and resposibility over the past years.
i already help to run the place. i know what it means to be an architect, and for all intents and purposes, that is how i'm viewed. give your head a shake: you don't need a 'seal' to perform the function of 'architect'. and even the most senior people in our firm develop details. i hope you don't think a seal absolves you of that task.
i use rules of thumb and experience when estimating structure (and mechanical/electrical to a lesser extent). but i also understand that the engineer is responsible for calculating my assumptions to realize our design. that is what we hire them for. we work together, yes. but our firm takes NO responsibility for those professions. that said, i also check every aspect of an engineers work to ensure that i fits within the constraints of our work.
details are my responsibility. spot welds in the W sections are not. i see it says you've passed construction documents...maybe you should revisit your notes?
ps: my argument was about the specifics of structure. if you claim to calculate the centroidial axis of members, the moment of inertia and determining the size and length of welds in your designs, then kodos. your fees must be massive (or you bleed like a stuck pig), but kudos!اخر تعديل في السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 05:51 pm بواسطة graspin
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QUIKSILVER
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | الجمعة مارس 10th, 2006 |
| الموقع: | Land Of Oppurtunity, USA |
| عدد المواضيع: | 1369 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, LF, ME, BD/MM, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | CD, SP, BP, BT | | Describes Me: | Optimistic individual whom believes that Failure teaches Success!!!!.... |
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كتب: السبت نوفمبر 15th, 2008 06:52 pm |
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graspin wrote: subgenius wrote: Yes, it is just you. I am surprised to see someone during this century use the term "obtuse". Nevertheless, i see others use the old "i never check the engineer's work". Unfortunately, you should be using this knowledge before the design even gets to the engineer. if you ever want to get off of doing details for someone else you had better be able to understand what being an Architect really means....or just be content with being a drafter. The same concept applies to the electrical, mechanical, and construction issues. You must also complain about construction details? why bother? just let the contractor put in what and how he feels is necessary? Last time i checked my day at the office was more than just coming up with a pretty picture for a magazine. This whining is why our profession has lost more and more relevance and resposibility over the past years.
i already help to run the place. i know what it means to be an architect, and for all intents and purposes, that is how i'm viewed. give your head a shake: you don't need a 'seal' to perform the function of 'architect'. and even the most senior people in our firm develop details. i hope you don't think a seal absolves you of that task.
i use rules of thumb and experience when estimating structure (and mechanical/electrical to a lesser extent). but i also understand that the engineer is responsible for calculating my assumptions to realize our design. that is what we hire them for. we work together, yes. but our firm takes NO responsibility for those professions. that said, i also check every aspect of an engineers work to ensure that i fits within the constraints of our work.
details are my responsibility. spot welds in the W sections are not. i see it says you've passed construction documents...maybe you should revisit your notes?
ps: my argument was about the specifics of structure. if you claim to calculate the centroidial axis of members, the moment of inertia and determining the size and length of welds in your designs, then kodos. your fees must be massive (or you bleed like a stuck pig), but kudos!
Graspin,
You're argument makes sense.....as this is what I do on a daily/ monthly/yearly basis too...
I think, you just need to absorb as much of this 'structural B.S.' as you can....and go in and take a swing at this exam....as it's not as bad as others say it is....you just need to read the questions carefully..
I'm sure you'll do fine.....if you're a good test taker...
Cheers,
Q..
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graspin
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | السبت يوليو 5th, 2008 |
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كتب: الاحد نوفمبر 16th, 2008 12:15 am |
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yeah, i know we can do it...it's just a drag that we need to. i'm just trying to learn as much as i need to get a pass. nothing more, nothing less.
good thing is that general structures and lateral forces are my only 2 i need to write...even if i fail both and need to transition, it'll be like i'm shaving an exam anyways because the 2 structures get condensed into one exam.
but i just took the ARE study guide exam/quiz and scored 31/41 with hardly any studying. is this thing more theory?
اخر تعديل في الاحد نوفمبر 16th, 2008 12:32 am بواسطة graspin
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RQ8
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| تاريخ الالتحاق: | الاثنين يونيو 16th, 2008 |
| الموقع: | Long Beach, CA |
| عدد المواضيع: | 99 |
| Exams Taken: | PD, GS, ME, CD, SP, BP, BT | | Exams Passed: | PD, GS, ME, CD, SP, BT | | Describes Me: | A-R-C-H-I-T-_-_-_ |
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كتب: الاحد نوفمبر 16th, 2008 09:50 am |
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I'm finding a lot of the preparation for GS has value in a couple of areas:
1. It gives you enough competence and knowledge to have a reasonably intelligent discussion with a structural engineer (and to identify when they're stalling/wasting time/overdesigning stuff, which they're liable to do if you don't keep them on a short leash) and
2. Be able to lay out structural systems in a schematic fashion in order to create reasonable designs as a project is being developed - in other words, to allow adequate allowances for the sizes and form of structural systems in the development of designs so things aren't ridiculously undersized or otherwise inappropriate, which will create problems/costs later.
A lot of it is part of the "ritualized hazing process" that architects have to endure though. Yes to that. But it does help to de-mystify a lot of the stuff in order to give better guidance to (and keep better tabs on) structural engineers that you ultimately will work with on your design teams.
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الوقت الحالي هو 09:46 pm | |
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